This Might Seem Basic... Aggression Check, 5/10

[akishore 0]

5/10 ringI thought the game was loose, but it was becoming average around here I believe. The individual reads I had were for the donks that busted and left, unfortunately -- no read on the villian involved in this hand.I'm in MP with A 10 (suits irrelevant).UTG limps, ..., I raise, ..., BB calls, UTG calls.(6.5 sb, 3 plrs) A J 6 rainbowBB checks, UTG bets, I raise, BB folds, UTG calls.(5 bb, 2 plrs) 3This turn introduces a flush draw; I don't have any of that suit.UTG bets, I ...?Call down or raise? If raise, call down to a three-bet or fold to a three-bet? (I hate basically all three options, fwiw...)Aseem

[TheCorporation3 0]

5/10 ringI thought the game was loose, but it was becoming average around here I believe. The individual reads I had were for the donks that busted and left, unfortunately -- no read on the villian involved in this hand.I'm in MP with A 10 (suits irrelevant).UTG limps, ..., I raise, ..., BB calls, UTG calls.(6.5 sb, 3 plrs) A J 6 rainbowBB checks, UTG bets, I raise, BB folds, UTG calls.(5 bb, 2 plrs) 3This turn introduces a flush draw; I don't have any of that suit.UTG bets, I ...?Call down or raise? If raise, call down to a three-bet or fold to a three-bet? (I hate basically all three options, fwiw...)Aseem

For him to be limping UTG it seems he has a pp. Flopped a set of 6's? I don't know why he would lead if you were the preflop raiser if he had a set, but it looks like he has a set, or if he is a donk he can easily have a bunch of hands. Generally his leading the turn is a sign of weakness so I would raise, if he 3 bets, call/call. There are too many hands that he could have in a LIMIT game that you have beat to fold, and I like a raise on the turn.

[akishore 0]

For him to be limping UTG it seems he has a pp. Flopped a set of 6's? I don't know why he would lead if you were the preflop raiser if he had a set, but it looks like he has a set, or if he is a donk he can easily have a bunch of hands. Generally his leading the turn is a sign of weakness so I would raise, if he 3 bets, call/call. There are too many hands that he could have in a LIMIT game that you have beat to fold, and I like a raise on the turn.

But why raise rather than call down?? (knowing that you're not folding to a three-bet... is a three-bet still a sign of weakness?)

[TheCorporation3 0]

But why raise rather than call down?? (knowing that you're not folding to a three-bet... is a three-bet still a sign of weakness?)

I like the raise on the turn because most limit monkeys, not all like the good players like you and I, but most will still lead with just a J or an Ace rag or even hands like 99/99/77 (he limped UTG). These are both his likely holdings, and he will call 2 bets on the turn and check/call river, he also would lead with his flush draw, and still call your raise. Grounds for just calling the turn in hopes to seen a "safe" card and the raising the river isn't a bad idea either. If you put him on just a J and or a bad A kicker and know he will lead the river then you can just call the turn and raise the river if a "safe" card comes. This way you can still get your extra bet in, but BEFORE you see the river. Unless he will steal lead the river with his missed flush in his last attempt to win the pot you could raise but he will fold and you will not get the extra bet you would've gotten on the turn raise.If he leads with acerag/J/99/88/77 and you raise turn he will check call river. If you just call turn he is likely to still fire and you can THEN raise for your extra bet, while seeing if the river fills that flush or another J comes. But this is coming from the sites where I play from. They are all pretty aggrodonkish and they tend to lead with a lot of dumb hands. WPEX is full of agrrodonk limit morons, so I guess it depends on your read of the player as well, if you have any.

[akishore 0]

Not convinced. I didn't mean call to imply that we'll raise a safe river. I meant call down versus raise since you said you're calling a three-bet. Raising WHEN planning to call down to a three-bet really seems like a ton of spewing.Aseem

[Head_Trauma 0]

Just call down in this situation with no reads. The reason you can do this is because you have position on him. If you have the best hand, let him bet it for you. If he has you beat, you save money by not raising.I don't like raising and folding to a 3 bet because we have no read on the player and it is possible we would be folding the best hand. I also don't like raising and then calling a 3 bet down. I don't think our hand is nearly strong enough to do this. Either way, I think there is very little value to a raise here.So like I said, just call down and get a relatively cheap showdown, learn something about the player, and move on.

[DonkSlayer 1]

My 2 cents:If you raise the turn, it's a fold to a 3-bet.If you call the turn, call the river regardless of whether it brings the flush draw.I hate raising with A10 in MP unless the table is very tight. That wasn't your read on it. Are we arguing that when playing an unknown, spewing is better than playing a little safe?

[TheCorporation3 0]

My 2 cents:If you raise the turn, it's a fold to a 3-bet.If you call the turn, call the river regardless of whether it brings the flush draw.I hate raising with A10 in MP unless the table is very tight. That wasn't your read on it. Are we arguing that when playing an unknown, spewing is better than playing a little safe?

The more I think about it, you're right. I still 2 bet the turn, but give it up to a 3 bet. I can't see you just calling the turn though, I have to raise in that spot. But, yes, like donkeyslayer says, fold to a 3 bet.

[dimseven 0]

Against someone with no read on, just call it down

[MrNiceGuy 0]

My 2 cents:If you raise the turn, it's a fold to a 3-bet.If you call the turn, call the river regardless of whether it brings the flush draw.I hate raising with A10 in MP unless the table is very tight. That wasn't your read on it.

QFT (especially that last line).On the turn, I'd put him on most likely either 2-pair or a set, or one pair that picked up a flush draw. In the first case, obviously you would rather not raise. In the second case, if you raise, he'll call and probably check-fold the river UI, but if you call, there's a good chance you can induce either a river bluff or a crying check-call if he does not improve.So I like a simple call down here, regardless of what hits on the river (I don't think I'd even raise a T or A river without a read). I think I'd bet any river if checked to (you'd have to call a c/r, which would really suck, but not as much as raising the turn and calling a 3-bet would have).

[rwood 0]

this is an easy raise IMO, he either A, has picked up a flush draw, or B has a weaker suited ace, i dont know why but i put him on A7. i raise here/fold to 3 bet most likely, unless im stuck then i'd prolly call down lol

[the_stein 0]

I REALLY think the best play here is to 3bet/foldThis is an unknown, given that we could be ahead, behind, or drawing dead.So if he is tight he might fold a slightly better hand to a 3 bet, if he is loose we could be ahead, and if unsure we can check the river for the same price as it would have cost to just call down. 98% of the time if he 3 bets here we are surely beat so folding is easy.The only tricky part here is if he just calls and then bets out the river. That would be real clever. We would have to call the bet on the river because of the size of a pot.It looks like he has 33, acex suited that made a flush draw on the turn or maybe the turn gave him a sick 2 pair lol

[MrNiceGuy 0]

So if he is tight he might fold a slightly better hand to a 3 bet

I don't think anybody who would bet/fold AQ or AT here would limp UTG with these hands.(I agree that there's a slim chance that a tight player could have limped AQ, and could now be bet/folding, but I think the chances of this are probably worse than the chances that we get 3-bet by a worse hand.)

[DonkSlayer 1]

I REALLY think the best play here is to 3bet/foldThis is an unknown, given that we could be ahead, behind, or drawing dead.So if he is tight he might fold a slightly better hand to a 3 bet, if he is loose we could be ahead, and if unsure we can check the river for the same price as it would have cost to just call down. 98% of the time if he 3 bets here we are surely beat so folding is easy.

I like calling down better. Although it does make for an easy fold on the turn if we get 3-bet, we've lost a lot of image at the table and UTG may get into call-down mode when we get aggressive again. AQ and a dirty 2 pair are not folding here and not necessarily raising us, so I think we actually lose a bet on the turn if we raise that we can save from just calling. So, we just call, and then UTG checks the river. Assuming it's not a 10, do we bet?

[dimseven 0]

So, we just call, and then UTG checks the river. Assuming it's not a 10, do we bet?

Yes

[akishore 0]

So, I think raise/call is the worst line. Unfortunately, that's what I did, LOL. I actually intended to raise/fold, but after I raised and villian three-bet, I found myself super curious since I rarely play this limit, so I stubbornly called the three-bet and a bet on a brick river. Turned out my hand was good against J 9 (no flush draw on turn).I don't know if I'm being results oriented slightly or not, but this result does make me feel like calling down is a slightly better line than raise/fold, because your average player might be considerably more aggressive and tricky at 5/10 here than they would be at 1/2, 2/4 or 3/6. Costs the same to call down but you are guaranteed a showdown.And DonkSlayer, yes it's an auto-bet if they check practically any river to you.Aseem

[CoranMoran 0]

In my opnion, when someone donk bets the turn like this, it typically means all-or-nothing.Is he really going to do this with a draw?Risking getting raised seems very foolish of him.I was planning on value betting my hand.But I certainly don't mind him bluffing at me.No need to get too greedy.Especially when raising would likely scare the bluffer off.Without a much stronger hand, I call down these funky bets.--cm