A8s

[BudBundy 0]

Full Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $1/$27 playersConverterPre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 (poster) checks, CO raises, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.Flop: :) (10SB, 4 players)Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.Turn: (6.5BB, 3 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.River: (8.5BB, 2 players)Hero bets, CO calls.Results:Final pot: 10.5BBJust sat down and saw CO raising from EP with K10s PF.Anyone check raising the flop,Check/call turn and check-fold river?I couldn't decide which line is better.

[Actuary 3]

leading flop >>> c/r flop.> = better than.c/c river.better hands are not folding river.few worse hands are raising preflop that would call here, i.e. missed overs.And many times the missed overs will take a stab now..about as often as they would call at least. Also, a better hand might check behind and save you a bet.

[Zach6668 513]

leading flop >>> c/r flop.> = better than.c/c river.better hands are not folding river.few worse hands are raising preflop that would call here, i.e. missed overs.And many times the missed overs will take a stab now..about as often as they would call at least. Also, a better hand might check behind and save you a bet.

I was thinking c/c river. The rest looks good.Definitely leading the flop given our relative position. We want CO to raise us here.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I agree on check/calling the river.Not only are better hands not folding, the worse hands are frequently not calling. That is equivalent to a value-bet that doesn't have much value.Leading the flop is much better than check/raising. If we check/raise CO, we're protecting his hand for him. We want to whipsaw people in the middle and get as much money in on the flop as possible, when we have a realizeable equity advantage even over holdings that are currently ahead of us, like 99. Don't forget our two pair/trips outs are worth a lot on top of our NFD.

[BuffDan 0]

I also bet the flop, but what do we do if CO raises? I would think call to try to get the extra bet from UTG+1, then c/c turn but then would river be c/f UI? Or do we think he is bluffing with overs enough?

[Actuary 3]

I also bet the flop, but what do we do if CO raises?

3-bet.we have 13.5 (except vs AA) outs if behind and sometimes we aren'tWe may get 2 extra bets raising, we'll get 1 at least.

[antistuff 0]

you leading this flop here is perfect. you have a bunch of people in between you and the preflop raiser. if you go for a checkraise you will knock them all out. this is a very important concept that i always see people miss at the tables.on the river you might get a call from ak or something like that. i think check/calling usually has more value, especially if he tends to be aggressive.

[loopie 0]

Full Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $1/$27 playersConverterPre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 (poster) checks, CO raises, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.Flop: :) (10SB, 4 players)Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.Turn: (6.5BB, 3 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.River: (8.5BB, 2 players)Hero bets, CO calls.Results:Final pot: 10.5BBJust sat down and saw CO raising from EP with K10s PF.Anyone check raising the flop,Check/call turn and check-fold river?I couldn't decide which line is better.

the play was fine, leading out on flop is good because u don't want to risk trying to check raise and let an overcard peel off to beat ya.I would definitely check/call the river though. A check could induce a bluff from your opponent and you can't stand a raise on the river with your hand. With this in mind, a value bet on the river isn't worth it.

[RISEorFall 0]

leading out on flop is good because u don't want to risk trying to check raise and let an overcard peel off to beat ya.

you dont want to checkraise because you face the rest of the field with 2 cold and we have a hand where we want to trap the field for as many bets as we can, not knock them out of the hand and get ourselves HU.youre right, giving a free card here sucks, but thats not the main reason we dont want to checkraise

[loopie 0]

you dont want to checkraise because you face the rest of the field with 2 cold and we have a hand where we want to trap the field for as many bets as we can, not knock them out of the hand and get ourselves HU.youre right, giving a free card here sucks, but thats not the main reason we dont want to checkraise

If u merely had a nut flush draw, I would agree. But since you have top pair/top kicker, eliminating some of the field wouldn't necessarily be a negative. Especially since the top pair is a pair of 8s.

[Actuary 3]

If u merely had a nut flush draw, I would agree. But since you have top pair/top kicker, eliminating some of the field wouldn't necessarily be a negative. Especially since the top pair is a pair of 8s.

absolutely correctthis contribution is what we need more of.nh.seriouslythis pot is already 5 BigBets, we should try to win it while feeling fine about buildng a pot as well, It's win-win, whether or not they all fold or call.

[Zach6668 513]

Cleaning up ace outs is really nice too.I could go either way on the flop play.However, consider this:You lead, 2 players call, the PFR raises, we 3-bet.Any chance we fold hands like AQ etc looking for a cheap turn?Probably not at these stakes, but it's something to think about.- Zach

[antistuff 0]

absolutely correctthis contribution is what we need more of.nh.seriouslythis pot is already 5 BigBets, we should try to win it while feeling fine about buildng a pot as well, It's win-win, whether or not they all fold or call.

this is interesting, at what point does the pot become big enough that our main concern is winning it right now? is there some kind of math behind this? its like one of the main ideas behind sshe (protecting your hand when the pot gets big), but it never gives a guideline for how big it has to be to make checkraising better than leading out here.

[Actuary 3]

Cleaning up ace outs is really nice too.However, consider this:You lead, 2 players call, the PFR raises, we 3-bet.Any chance we fold hands like AQ etc looking for a cheap turn?Probably not at these stakes, but it's something to think about.- Zach

you mean will AQ fold to a lead/3bet line?doubtful gettig 16:2not sure I followI'm on my new Notebook PCCan I play Party on here with my original account?I got to set up some sort of network I guess

[Zach6668 513]

you mean will AQ fold to a lead/3bet line?doubtful gettig 16:2not sure I followI'm on my new Notebook PCCan I play Party on here with my original account?I got to set up some sort of network I guess

Like, would AQ peel for one bet, but fold when it comes back for 2 more... more of a hypothetical, I guess.***You can play your Party account from any computer.Just sign in with your username and password.- Zach

[RISEorFall 0]

Cleaning up ace outs is really nice too.

we dont need to clean up A outs, we have them reverse dominated and drawing to 2 outsbetting out on this flop isn't usually protecting our hand from overs. a check/raise will do that better, and give us a better chance to win the pot immediately. but even 2 overs have 4 outs, we dont really need to protect our hand from anything.

[loopie 0]

this is interesting, at what point does the pot become big enough that our main concern is winning it right now? is there some kind of math behind this? its like one of the main ideas behind sshe (protecting your hand when the pot gets big), but it never gives a guideline for how big it has to be to make checkraising better than leading out here.

In my experience, the bigger the pot gets the tougher it is to eliminate or thin the field. So even though u may attempt to thin the field by check raising, the pot size may make the field call with any pair or over cards. So, although check raising is meant to thin the field, this is not always the result. And if they cold call 2 bets, the pot is built even more for the nut flush draw and aces up hand.

[Actuary 3]

some overs have 6 outs, no?this pot is destined to be 12 BB-ish.We 're happy if KQ folds now, 4 outs or 6.But we're also fine with a call.Folding to aggression when we miss our A/8/Flush won't be hard. c/r sorta sucks because of the free card risk and the missed value

[antistuff 0]

In my experience, the bigger the pot gets the tougher it is to eliminate or thin the field. So even though u may attempt to thin the field by check raising, the pot size may make the field call with any pair or over cards. So, although check raising is meant to thin the field, this is not always the result. And if they cold call 2 bets, the pot is built even more for the nut flush draw and aces up hand.

i think though the idea of protecting your hand is that you win more if they fold but if they call when they have bad odds and shouldnt you also win. its not about protecting your hand right now so you dont get sucked out on its also about getting them to make bad calls. in which case your are completely correct. if they will call for two then checkraising is tits.

[RISEorFall 0]

some overs have 6 outs, no?

im tired. yeah they can have more than 4. but it's not likely they also have 2 diamonds, so 5 at most usually.

in which case your are completely correct. if they will call for two then checkraising is tits.

but betting out is still better. no free cards, get immediate value, and if we can 3-bet we trap the field for several more bets with a big hand.

[loopie 0]

im tired. yeah they can have more than 4. but it's not likely they also have 2 diamonds, so 5 at most usually.but betting out is still better. no free cards, get immediate value, and if we can 3-bet we trap the field for several more bets with a big hand.

heres another scenario: what if the pre-flop raiser is directly to your left and theres a good chance he'll bet any flop. Nobody has said anything about the position of the raiser pre-flop which affects the flop play.

[RISEorFall 0]

Definitely leading the flop given our relative position. We want CO to raise us here.

[loopie 0]

Oops srry. Zach and I were ignoring each other. Must have missed it

[antistuff 0]

also

you leading this flop here is perfect. you have a bunch of people in between you and the preflop raiser.

just cuz i like quoting myself

[loopie 0]

also just cuz i like quoting myself

ok, so if the raiser is directly to ur left, do u automatically go for the check raise of the field?