Jack Hammering (4/8)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bodog 4/8 LHE (6-handed)Cobalt is BB w/ J J . CO is somewhat loose and donkish, but my read isn't great yet.Pre-flop:UTG calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Cobalt 3-bets, 1 fold, CO callsFlop (7.5 SB): 4 T 8 (2 players)Cobalt bets, CO callsTurn (4.75 BB): 5 (2 players)Cobalt bets, CO callsRiver (6.75 BB): 7 (2 players)Cobalt ?

[jayboogie 0]

Easy Bet and I would probably call a raise too

[CobaltBlue 662]

Easy Bet and I would probably call a raise too

See...I thought bet/call was the best line also, but I think if we get raised, we're most likely screw-ed. As I don't want to fold, I'm thinking check/call might be better.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

See...I thought bet/call was the best line also, but I think if we get raised, we're most likely screw-ed. As I don't want to fold, I'm thinking check/call might be better.

Whoa! "If we get called, we're most likely screw-ed" woud be a good reason not to bet the river. "If we get raised...." is not.No reason to think villain has a 6 or two-pair. If he's trapping with a set or an overpair, well, he sucks, but he could have raised the turn and you'd have paid off anyway.. And if he rivered a flush, so be it. I do think you have to pay off a river raise without a stellar read.Unless he is extremely likely to bluff at nothing when checked to on a scary board (but is unlikely to bluff-raise), or he frequently folds to a river bet after calling down, this is an easy bet, IMO.--------------------------------------------I'm so surprised to hear the above statement from you, I'm wondering if my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning....

[Sysvr4 0]

I gotta go against the grain here a bit. When the river completes multiple draws, I'm much more likely to check OOP. I think check/call is just fine here since you're not likely to get called by many hands you beat and the only way you get value out of this river is if he bluffs it. I think bet/call would be a very bad line, so IMO:c/c > b/f >> bet/callJeff

[jayboogie 0]

See...I thought bet/call was the best line also, but I think if we get raised, we're most likely screw-ed. As I don't want to fold, I'm thinking check/call might be better.

Well you said he was donkish that's why I thought he might do something stupid like try to represent some kind of hand. Bet/Fold is a line you can take if you're confident in your read or something, but I see many players raise this river with any pair on this board sometimes hoping you'll fold.Check/Call is simply the worst option of all unless your opponent is a habitual bettor when you check to them and I mean you have to be like 100% sure he bets when you check. It's a pretty clear value bet otherwise, I would guess that you've been running bad and become gunshy. This is something that I would do in the past when I've been getting crushed in games, just assuming I got screwed and check/call. Passive tilt sucks and you should try avoid doing that at all costs.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

When the river completes multiple draws, I'm much more likely to check OOP.

In general, I agree with this philosophy, but in this particular hand, I don't think that river card is particularly scary, given the action. If that river card beat us, given his PFR, then CO likely had either 66 or a high flush draw. 66 is certainly reasonable, although many players would have just limped PF with 66. A flush draw might raise the flop, but a passively-played flush draw is reasonable, since CO may fear that his overcard outs are no good because of our preflop 3-bet.I suppose it's possible CO had us beat before the river and was slowplaying, but I think it's unlikely.On the other hand, CO could have AK, AQ, AT, 99, or something similar. Granted, he may fold these hands, but he won't expect that river to have helped us, so he may make a crying call if we bet (or even try a bluff-raise). I would think that he would happily accept a free showdown with these hands if we check, since villain would not expect us to fold a better hand if he bet.So, overall, in this hand, I think we should be betting this river. I'm calling a raise getting 10-1, unless I am highly confident that villain would not try to bluff-raise that board, but I don't think bet/fold is terrible.If villain had limped before the flop instead of raising, I'd be much more inclined to check/call here.

[Sysvr4 0]

I suppose it's possible CO had us beat before the river and was slowplaying, but I think it's unlikely....Granted, he may fold these hands, but he won't expect that river to have helped us, so he may make a crying call if we bet (or even try a bluff-raise).

I think that's the crux of the hand. Is villain more likely to call with a hand like A-high or bluff with it? I don't know the answer to that obviously, but my default there is to assume he'll bluff it more often than call. Especially given how dangerous this board looks, I think he's less likely to call. I do think it's fairly close without a better read.That said, I still think bet/call is the worst option. I find it hard to believe that villain simultaneously would be more likely to check behind on the river and bluff raise the river. Just doesn't make sense. If he's a bluffer, he'd just bet the river. check/call or bet/fold, I say.Jeff

[screech 0]

I think your play on the river hinges on 3 factors:1) how often, if ever, will villian call with ace high2) how aggressive would he play a pair on that flop/turn3) will he bluff overcards on the river

[CobaltBlue 662]

I don't think that villain is going to bluff-raise this river, and I think he's more likely to bet ace-high than call with it. I think we're losing value against XT/99 by checking, but other than that...I'm not sure what hands that we beat will check behind...and the ten is capable of betting the river.

Whoa! "If we get called, we're most likely screw-ed" woud be a good reason not to bet the river. "If we get raised...." is not.No reason to think villain has a 6 or two-pair. If he's trapping with a set or an overpair, well, he sucks, but he could have raised the turn and you'd have paid off anyway.. And if he rivered a flush, so be it. I do think you have to pay off a river raise without a stellar read.Unless he is extremely likely to bluff at nothing when checked to on a scary board (but is unlikely to bluff-raise), or he frequently folds to a river bet after calling down, this is an easy bet, IMO.--------------------------------------------I'm so surprised to hear the above statement from you, I'm wondering if my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning....

Let me rephrase...if we get called (but especially if we get raised), we're probably in trouble.For some reason, when that river hit, I thought, "****...he has 6." I don't know why I thought that, but I did. I still knew that generally speaking the proper answer was bet/call, but if I'm incapable of pulling bet/fold with an overpair in this spot, I question whether it's correct.

[screech 0]

I don't think that villain is going to bluff-raise this river, and I think he's more likely to bet ace-high than call with it.

then it's a check/call if he bets weak made hands, and a bet/fold otherwise.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Okay...so villain raised here, and we called. Villain flipped over 66, and I slammed my fist about another runner-runner donkey gut-shot straight.

[Wingmaster05 0]

Easy Bet and I would probably call a raise too

yeah i'm with this crowd. miss too much value from crappier hands that probably won't bet (loose/bad players typically fit the mold of loose/passive, as in call when bet into, but dont bet).ok i read what you wrote above, and screech's line is ok.