christian

[bourbenz 0]

I think the biggest problem is that what most people who are not christian know of christ is what they see on TV. I'll tell ya that's not good. Too Also, for those of you who think being a christian is easy and that is why people are christian, I suggest you become one so you will see its much harder to be christian than atheist.

I'm not trying to start a fight but these statements are absurd, its harder to be a christian, thats like saying its harder to be a cow than a thoroughbred.and one last little note start a religious debate with an atheist, and they will show most christians right quick that they indeed know more about there religion and a lot others , more so than the beievers do. People who don't go to church and don't care one way or the other are not typical atheists, a typical atheist knows the religions and the books of them, that compounded with zero scientific data to prove it, is why non believers become atheists.

[FOOSE1 0]

How dare you belittle someone who believes something you don't.

so he can't say anything if someone comes on the message board and posts that he or she is a white proud racialist?

If you read my entire post I said "you are entitled to your opinion and voice it if you wish".This sentence you displayed (out of context) is about how he inisists on verbally abusing others for what they believe. There is a difference between voicing your opinion and "SMASHING" somone for their beliefs.

[Guest]

read those 3 proverbs above. it's a condoning of instilling fear in your children through physical abuse, which i don't agree with.

You are misinterpreting those passages. "He who loves [his son] diligently disciplines". Again, see the definition of discipline. It is the new age view of "discipline" that is largely responsible for the moral decay of our society.I am a father of two. Just out of curiousity, do you have any?

i don't think i'm misinterpreting. i think we just differ on our beliefs on the aforementioned "discipline".no i don't have any children, i'm 22 and am not even close to ready to have children. i know you might be thinking that i have no experience with dealing with children so i don't know what it's like. true. however i still disagree that physical "discipline" is okay. through personal experience, i was disciplined when i was young and it instilled in me a fear that i don't think is healthy for a developing child.

[nealdo17 0]

aneurysm wrote:As for my remarks regarding Catholocism: It is the original church. All Protestant churches are Catholocism's censored children. I use it as an example because Catholicism was Christianity until about 400 years ago.Catholicism is not the original church, Christ is. Catholicism is man created, Christ was created by God. There is no denying the atrocities performed by the Catholic church in the name of Christ (The Crusades are all that really need to be said). I think the Catholic faith is in actuality one of the biggest influences in people not finding Christ. That may be a little unfair to the church, but they are constantly in the media with scandals and their idealogy is not fully representative of the Bible. For instance "pentances" (paying for forgiveness of sins) were created by the Jews and adopted later by Catholics. In the New Testament, Jesus goes into the courtyard of the church and flips over the tables for pentances and other business matters. He clearly states this is not the purpose of church. I think the point that DN and others are trying to make is that it is a "personal relationship" with Christ. That is my religion. You can call it whatever you like because I am indifferent to the name, I know what it is. It is me with God. Not a scorecard, not an amount I give each month, not what anyone else tells me is right or wrong. Me and Christ. I understand the backlash that Christianity has seen due to people abusing Faith for their own personal desires. However, that is not the case for everyone. As far as social issues ie: homosexuality, sin, etc. Christ's message can be summed up in one word, "love." Christ hung out with the ill, the prostitutes, the so-called "scum" of the earth and loved them all. As for Smash and the others, I understand your point of view of many Christians. Especially when someone says they wont judge you and then the next post says "they feel sorry" or "sad" for you (not a direct quote). To everyone here as Christians we have to be careful and honest on how we proclaim our faith in Christ. "Walking contradictions" arent going to convert the masses. Only Christ and the word can do that through us. My goal is not to convert the masses, but rather hope that one person sees the joy Christ has brought into my life and asks me to share my story.

[card79 0]

Your faith shouldn't be something that somebody has to prove to you with a scientific experiment or a calculus equation or anything else. It should be where your heart leads you. In the end your faith will never mean so much as when it is all you have left to hold onto.

[BetItAll33 0]

read those 3 proverbs above. it's a condoning of instilling fear in your children through physical abuse, which i don't agree with.

You are misinterpreting those passages. "He who loves [his son] diligently disciplines". Again, see the definition of discipline. It is the new age view of "discipline" that is largely responsible for the moral decay of our society.I am a father of two. Just out of curiousity, do you have any?

i don't think i'm misinterpreting. i think we just differ on our beliefs on the aforementioned "discipline".no i don't have any children, i'm 22 and am not even close to ready to have children. i know you might be thinking that i have no experience with dealing with children so i don't know what it's like. true. however i still disagree that physical "discipline" is okay. through personal experience, i was disciplined when i was young and it instilled in me a fear that i don't think is healthy for a developing child.

I googled for a Christian interpretation of the passages you cited. Here's the first one I came up with:First of all, discipline of children should begin at an early age, whenever a child begins to defy the parent. Remember the old saying, "He who spares the rod, spoils the child." Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts. We are to drive out this foolishness by punishing them with a whack on the butt with a small reed-like rod when they disobey. This rod could be a switch from a fruit tree branch or a willow tree branch or a small wooden spoon. It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage. We are not talking about child abuse here. The purpose of a spanking is not to cause any lasting bodily harm, but to cause spiritual correction. A spanking should be swift and cause short lived pain that makes a point. That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them the loss of their lives in some cases. (For instance, if a child tries to eat something that is poison.)I was also disciplined as a child, and I'm thankful for it. Lack of discipline is more prevalent today than actual child abuse. Certainly, child abuse is a FAR more serious problem.

[jayistheman 0]

i really... really... really like hot pockets.is that wrong?i personally believe they are deliciousscrumptious in factcoconut sucksblue is definately the best colorif you disagree, please tell me every way in which im wrong.... i really need to hear it.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

I think it would be better if you said "I dislike coconut" and "I like blue the best" as this would be stating opinion rather than as a fact. Political correctness please. :wink: Hot pockets taste delicious, and I like coconut and feel that mint has a place in my stomach. :-) I do not enjoy tobacco products. :?

[jayistheman 0]

no tobacco?you are surely going to hell now.i challenge you to disagree with me.... you are expressing infinite stupidity, you ingorant little peon. how dare you express an opinion on a public forum

[jeff_536 3]

I think it would be better if you said "I dislike coconut" and "I like blue the best" as this would be stating opinion rather than as a fact. Political correctness please. :wink: Hot pockets taste delicious, and I like coconut and feel that mint has a place in my stomach. :-) I do not enjoy tobacco products. :?

What's become sad about this forum is someone posts about a hand and three guys jump on him and tell him to post in strategy.Meanwhile, in the general poker forum, there's an on-going religious debate being contributed to by our host.Maybe these kinds of posts should be in off-topic?On in a religious forum?I like mexican food.

[troutsmart 0]

For a period of my life, I served as a missionary. Each day I would talk on the streets and in the homes of people from every walk of life. I talked with those who actively participated in organized religions, Christian in the majority, but also extensively with those of the Middle Eastern faiths. I talked with those endorsed a religion of "self", being that they didn't believe in organized religion, or a particular person, but rather their faith was based in themselves. I talked with Atheists, and Agnostics. I talked with ministers, and with those heavily addicted to drugs, and alchohol. From morning to night, I listened to what people believed or chose not to believe. At times it left me disallusioned. Early on in my service, I was niavely compelled to expect those I talked to to want to believe what I believed. This resulted in frustration. The lack of unity among those who had faith in something was disheartening. After some time, I prefered to talk with the person who had little care for religion, Christ, or faith. I prefered to talk to the guy sticking needles between his toes, or the women raising four kids on her own, while her husband served time in prison. I prefered helping suffering over helping someone believe. As time passed, I became aware of something, however. Those who suffered in addictions, and those just trying to get by needed something. They needed faith. Faith in something beyond themselves. My faith had been rooted in Christ from a young child. I grew up in a family that belonged to an organized religion, and went to church on Sundays. A picture of Christ has always been found near my bedside. I was taught to pray to a God, my Heavenly Father. In my youth, I never doubted that somebody was listening to those prayers. I'd get off my knees at night and crawl in bed with a belief that I was being watched over, that I mattered. It wasn't until I was serving as a missionary that I questioned that belief. I'm not going to bore you with my story of convertion. I will say though, that in the process of helping those who struggled with problems I had never experienced, my faith grew stronger. I watched countless lives change when faith became a part of their lives. The change was drastic in many cases. I do not mention whether that faith was in Christ or not. In most cases, it was. In some, it was simply a belief or faith that somebody cared about them, and they could overcome those things that were robbing their lives of happiness. Life for me is about happiness. That might sound incredibly narrow, that I will concede. I simply believe that people can live happy lives regardless of circumstance. There are too many things in this world that would try and take away that happiness. We worry about money, some in vanity, some by neccessity. We worry about image and how our peers see us. We suffer from depressions, infermities, and social injustices. Drugs, excessive alchohol, and sexual promiscuity may provide entertainment, but ultimately result in consequence. I commend those who can lives that are indeed happy without faith. I cannot, and nor can the majority of those I've encountered. My faith is in Christ and a God above. In many ways, I like being like that little kid I was who'd climb into bed after saying his nightly prayers. I like the idea that I'm not alone, and that somebody is watching over me, mindful of my sorrows and eager to help me to have happiness. Call me naive. Call me needy. Call me misguided. Yes, I am naive in many ways, I do need help, and at times, I can be terribly misguided. That is why I need faith.

[badgerbucco 0]

Here is one of the things the original poster wrote:

Leave me your email on this forum if you want to chat about becoming a Christian.

Combined with the testimonial, this is obvious proselytizing. It wasn't done in a rude way, but it certainly is seeking conversion to some form of Christianity. I would have felt much more compassion for the poster in the face of Smash's comments if he/she had just stuck to a discussion about religion rather than seeking converts. In my book, once of proselytize, you are fair game for arguments that run counter to conversion. I enjoy discussions and debate about religion, but I highly dislike attempts to convert me. Daniel even mentioned in one of his posts that he doesn't push his beliefs on others. Of course, he then offered to send someone a book that seems designed to encourage people to buy into in a specific system of beliefs, so I'm not quite sure how he stands on the issue. I respect most beliefs that people hold and expect the same from them, and that respect includes not trying to change those beliefs. Seeking to change my beliefs shows me that you don't respect them.

[Tparks86 0]

Great post(s) Daniel. I was excited to hear that you were a Christian, but even more now, I know you've got your head on straight. You've cleared up a lot of misconceptions about Christianity and Relgion. I too am a believer that people put way to much stock in CHURCH and orgainized religion. It becomes a business and deters us from the real reason we call our selves Christians. I haven't read "A case for Christ" but have heard good things about it. MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis is probably my favorite book. He too, was an athiest, and "thought" his way into Christianity-the book is truely amazing. I challenge you all to read it, especially you smash. I don't want to preach or be a jerk, but you seem to be a pretty level-headed guy, and you can understand that it's important to really understand and explore something before you bash it and make assumptions that aren't true. Take a weekend and read Mere Christianity-keep an open mind-that's all I ask.God Bless-(great discussion)Tommy

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Here is one of the things the original poster wrote:

Leave me your email on this forum if you want to chat about becoming a Christian.

Combined with the testimonial, this is obvious proselytizing. It wasn't done in a rude way, but it certainly is seeking conversion to some form of Christianity. I would have felt much more compassion for the poster in the face of Smash's comments if he/she had just stuck to a discussion about religion rather than seeking converts. In my book, once of proselytize, you are fair game for arguments that run counter to conversion. I enjoy discussions and debate about religion, but I highly dislike attempts to convert me. Daniel even mentioned in one of his posts that he doesn't push his beliefs on others. Of course, he then offered to send someone a book that seems designed to encourage people to buy into in a specific system of beliefs, so I'm not quite sure how he stands on the issue. I respect most beliefs that people hold and expect the same from them, and that respect includes not trying to change those beliefs. Seeking to change my beliefs shows me that you don't respect them.

I'll send a book to those interested. I think it would be a great read for Atheists and Christians really. I'm not pushing or forcing it on anyone, but if someone wants a ton of great information on the subject I'd be happy to pay for it.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I'm happy for you that you've found something to glom onto and use as a crutch so you can go through your entire life avoiding and self inspection or uncertainty or

"Religion is the opium of the masses." Marx

this is one of my favorite quotes. But I am always at odds with it. I myself am a conundrum. I'm both a Social Democrat(yes, I just stated my core political beliefs) and a Christian at the same time. I'm not a hard core christian in teh slightest. I haven't attended church(other than christmas eve) in a while. Happenings to me in my life have made me question where my beliefs are and what I am about. Organized religion is a opiate, because people are willing to floow it blindly. I am refering more to the followers of Billy Grahamand Jerry Falwell and those types( I would include religious cults in this group too, including the church of L.Ron hubbard). These are also the people that effected the outcome of the past national election and will effect the outcome of the 2008 national election, for better for worse. For me being a christian is about maximizing your own happiness andliving a moral life. I use the word christian for myself as that is how I manifest my beliefs in the best way for myself. If I figure out another way to manifest my beliefs then I would change that. I don't identify myself as a fullout christian either, I just believe in myself. One person, one god, however you see fit. I don't believe in Blind Faith either(I'm not gonna insert the clapton joke this time), I just believe in personal faith. I try not to be judgemental, but none of us are infallible to that. I believe the person who started this trhread was judging smash when they said "jesus loves you", I don't care what smash believes in, I just care that he gives me a different perpesective on how I could've played my hand when I post it. I'm done with my little rant. peace, love, happiness to all

[Mattnxtc 0]

I really wish I had seen this last night. As for smashs point about morals. I would have to ask you if u considered yourself a good person? As for the debate about the catholic Church. Yeah its focus on paying money and worshiping to another man (pope included) is what started the reformation way back when. I am not trying to offend anybody that is catholic in here but there is a lot that is taught that either isnt in the Bible or that is part of a bigger situation. I think it was Daniel who said that he doesnt necessarily agree with the salvation by works. Well thats because according to the Bible it is not true. Paul spends an enormous amount of time saying that it is by grace through faith and not works that we are saved. A quick example is Ephesians 2:8-10:For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Also real quick about Christians never having problems. THe Bible is about conflict. Most of the Disciples and even the Apostle Paul were thrown into jail for preaching, and a great many of them...all but one i believe were put to death in various ways. Jesus himself said he "didnt come to bring peace but to bring the sword" So it is fullish to say that Christians dont suffer as anybody else. I didnt get to read all the posts b/c I needed to head out but those were some of the issues that I saw early on. If I recovered something already said im sorry but I thought id get that out

[Guest]

This disscussion reminds me of a great song. If any of you out hear ever want to hear some good music check out the song by Dream Theater called in the name of God. It disscusses all the things that were done "in the name of god" in the world.Like the cults, underground religions etc...Here are the lyrics.Dream TheaterIn The Name of Godby John PetrucciHow can this be?Why is he the chosen one?Saint gone astrayWith a scepter and a gunLearn to believeIn the mighty and the strongCome bleed the beastFollow me it won’t be longListen when the prophetSpeaks to youKilling in the of GodPassionTwisting faith into violenceIn the name of GodStraight is the pathLeading to your salvationSlaying the weakEthnic eliminationAnd day we’ll all beSwept awayYou’ll be savedAs long as you obeyLiesTools of the devil insideWritten in Holy disguiseMeant to deceive and divideUs allListen when the prophetSpeaks to youKilling in the name of GodPassionTwisting faith into violenceIn the name of GodBlurring the linesBetween virtue and sinThey can’t tellWhere God endsAnd manking beginsThey know no otherLife but thisFrom the cradleThey are claimedListen when the prophetSpeaks to youKillling in the name of GodPassionTwisting faith into violenceIn the name of GodHundreds of believersLured into a doomsday cultAll would perishIn the name of GodSelf-proclaimed messiahLed his servantsTo their deathEighty murderedIn the name of GodForty sons and daughtersUn-consenting plural wivesPerversionsIn the name of GodUnderground religionTurning towardThe mainstream lightBlind devotionIn the name of GodJustifying violenceCiting from the Holy BookTeaching hatredIn the name of GodListen when the prophetSpeaks to youKillingIn the name of GodPassionTwisting faith into violenceIn the name of GodReligious beliefsFanatic obsessionDoes following faithLead us to violence?Unyielding crusadeDivine revelationDoes following faithLead us to violence?

[jayistheman 0]

such an insanely talented band

[Tparks86 0]

To me, this is what it's all about."Beautiful Letdown" By Jon Foremanit was a beautiful let downwhen i crashed and burnedwhen i found myself alone unknown and hurtit was a beautiful let downthe day i knewthat all the riches this world had to offer mewould never doin a world full of bitter pain and bitter doubti was trying so hard to fit in, fit in,until i found outi don't belong herei don't belong hereI will carry a cross and a song where I don't belongbut i don't belongit was a beautiful let down when you found me hereyeah for once in a blue moon i see everything cleari'll be a beautiful let downthat's what i'll forever beand though it may cost my souli'll sing for freewe're still chasin our tails and the rising sunin our dark water planetstill spins in a racewhere no one wins and no one's oneI don't belong hereI don't belong herei'm gonna set sight and set sail for the kingdom comeYour kingdom comewon't you let me down yeahlet my foolish prideforever let me downeasy living, not much like your nameeasy dying, you look just about the samewon't you please take me off your listeasy living please come on and let me downwe are a beautiful let down, painfully uncool,the church of the dropoutsand losers and sinners and failures and the foolsoh what a beautiful let downare we salt in the woundlet us sing one true tuneI don't belong hereI don't belong hereI don't belong hereFeels like I don't belong hereLet me downLet me downFeels like I'm let downLet me down.Cuz I don't belong herePleaseWon't you let me down?

[Guest]

wow now we're quoting christian songs?if someone starts singing creed, i think i am going to lose it.

[CoolHandLaw 0]

So given that most of you, or some of you (at worst) consider yourself tied to a belief in God, or a higher being of some sort, but not firmly rooted in a religious organization, would it not be easier to refer to yourself as Unitarian? I believe in something, or someone greater, but I neither, practice, nor preach. I just simply believe that is possible (probably perhaps even) that there is someone/thing greater.My girlfriend is a unitarian. She believes in a greater being, but doesn't believe in becoming a part of any religious organization or following. The Unitarians are really just a group of people who believe that there could be someone/thing greater, but just aren't willing to give in to the idea that there is one right religious org.I also believe in Aliens too. But I don't preach or practice alienism.EDIT: You know what...Daniel, I'm gonna take you up on your offer about the book. Why? Because I'm interested. Geniunely interested. My father is a Catholic, uncle is a Catholic priest, my mom is Buddhist and my girlfriend is Unitarian. I face all different types of religions and beliefs daily as I interact with them. Perhaps getting a fresh (or at least different) idea is in order after all these years. I'll send you a PM or email about this...

[creepy20 0]

Once again, I've enjoyed reading everybodies posts. Whether they be for or against Christ. I myself am a Christian and have been for quite sometime. Christianity in by no means is easy and does not promise a life without problems, but promises a life with LOTS of problems. If we didn't have problems then we wouldn't need to Trust God to pull us through. I haven't read the " Case for Christ " but I have read " Mere Christianity " by C.S. Lewis and it by far is my favorite book. I think another poster said he read it too. If you really want a deep theological discussion than this is the book for you. Anything pretty much by C.S. Lewis is great. I in no means will say to keep an open mind when reading it. I hate when people say they are open-minded. People only accuse other people of being closed-minded because they don't think the same things as they do. Its just silly. So read it if you want..thats all. I just wanted to say something i had wrote in another post again and that having a personal relationship with God is really what Christianity is about, but first you must realize why you have to have a personal relationship with God. You are a sinner and you have broken the law of God. ( which is the Ten Commandments ) If you first do not realize that you are a sinner than you can't become a Christian. I see so many people proclaiming that just believe in Christ and everything will be ok. Well, we need to believe in Christ, but first we need to realize that we have wronged God. Once we realize this than true Grace and Mercy can be given. We must first admit that we are sinners and have broken God's law, we must repent ( a changing of the mind, to turn around ) and ask for God's forgiveness. Once we have Forgiveness ( which was promised to us when Christ payed for the sins of the whole world ) than we can have our personall relationship with God. I'm not saying that you aren't going to sin but you have a different outlook on sin now. I wish I could write more but I have to run. Just like to thank all the posters for their involvment in this topice and the great discussion. Once last thing though : you can debate so many things about the bible, but until you understand this one point than all other things are pointless to discuss.Thanks also to Daneil for offering up to buy the book for people. That is a great thing. God bless everyone and I would say good luck...but I don't believe in it rather...make good reads and play solid

[Guest]

I just wanted to say something i had wrote in another post again and that having a personal relationship with God is really what Christianity is about, but first you must realize why you have to have a personal relationship with God. You are a sinner and you have broken the law of God. ( which is the Ten Commandments ) If you first do not realize that you are a sinner than you can't become a Christian. I see so many people proclaiming that just believe in Christ and everything will be ok. Well, we need to believe in Christ, but first we need to realize that we have wronged God. Once we realize this than true Grace and Mercy can be given. We must first admit that we are sinners and have broken God's law, we must repent ( a changing of the mind, to turn around ) and ask for God's forgiveness. Once we have Forgiveness ( which was promised to us when Christ payed for the sins of the whole world ) than we can have our personal relationship with God. I'm not saying that you aren't going to sin but you have a different outlook on sin now.

this sounds like preaching to me.

[nealdo17 0]

DN wrote:I'll send a book to those interested. I think it would be a great read for Atheists and Christians really. I'm not pushing or forcing it on anyone, but if someone wants a ton of great information on the subject I'd be happy to pay for it.Daniel,From my post earlier, I obviously am a christian. However, my girlfriend is an atheist. I dont try to push anything on her and she has a very open mind. The best way i have found if somone is stubborn or open to learning more is to ask them "if you were wrong, would you want to know?". If they say no, there is nothing to talk about. Anyways, my main point is I would like to get the book for her to read. I would probably read it as well so we could have a dicussion abou it and maybe there could be an opening there. You said to email you, but how do I do that? I looked under the member thing and your email wasnt listed. Thanks,

[gadjet 11]

i love talking to people who had an attitude like yours and then became a Christian.Well, I imagine that's fairly unlikely to have happened, because my attitude is that Christanity for weak minded sucjers who needed something to fill the void when they realized that the Easter Bunny wasn't real.If you want to treat people well, then treat people well. Don't treat people well because someone told you that some guy who was nailed to a tree 2000 years ago, of whom there is absolutely no credible jistorical eveidence of him even existing, told you to.

Smash, I would recommend you would research the assertion that there is no credible historical evidence of his existence. You will be surprised. It is very well established that the man Jesus Christ did live, of course it's a large leap from there as to whether he was who he claimed….

I derive my morality and ethics internally, not based on an organised movement that's been responsible for more death than smallpox and more pain and suffering than than just about any other in the history of the planet. Christanity is about power and money. Power and money. Not virture. Virtue is self derived.

I think most of the Christians here would argue that the pain and suffering you speak of is a result of misguided leadership and people in positions of power misusing the name of God. These are not the actions which Christ condoned, and Christ spent a good part of his time arguing with the religious leaders in his day. Your argument against true Christianity is using things associated with the "Christian religion" that the personal individual believers themselves disagree with. This is pretty simple to grasp if you are listening. You can't say to DN that his beliefs are wrong because the Church has been a bastard for the last 1000's of years… because he already recognizes it and claims his beliefs to be not the same represented by those who caused the pain and suffering. A prime example today would be TV evangelists saying they are doing things in God's name, but clearly the people on the forum who claim a personal faith disagree with their actions.

I understand that the vast majority of the people in the world are hopelessly insecure followers who want to be told what to do and be part of something that makes them special.I understand that most people in the world are simply terrfied to say "I don't know the answer to..." about any of the big questions humans ponder. …I'm happy for you that you've found something to glom onto and use as a crutch so you can go through your entire life avoiding and self inspection or uncertainty or whatever problem it was that caused you to somehow come to believe that an invisable man in the sky sent his son into the womb of a virgin so he could wander around the desert for a while before being killed, coming back to life and then going back up to the sky with dad.Personally, I'm just not that gulliable or needy for some sort of emotional or rational quick fix at the cost of my intelligence. I'm fine with saying "I have no idea what happens when I die, all evidence would sem to indicate nothing at all". I'm also bright enough to realize that just because someone wrote something doesn't make it true. Particularly when they have their hand out looking for cash while they tell me salvation is more important than material things.

These statements wreak of bitterness towards religion and your own denial of self inspection. You are not listening to the personal beliefs instead you are making blanket statements and taking the worst of organized religion - which noone here is supporting! and using it to refute the life and teachings of Christ. You speak of using it as a crutch while you cling to your general statements with a stubbornness that is shocking even to your normal forum supporters.You have taken the easiest way out of all, by simply saying everyone's weak and that you don't know what happens but all evidence seems to point to nothing happening at all… when it is clear that you haven't truly weighed all the evidence…That said I am sure that regardless of how long we debated we would be at a stalemate… for two reasons. 1.) You would NEVER be able to prove me wrong, and 2.) I will never be able to prove me right, because true Christianity at some point somewhere along the line defies logic and requires a leap of faith. A leap of faith requires an open mind… and I'm sorry that you've closed yours… because if you can ever make that leap of faith, the freedom and love that will be found is amazing.But Smash, I do challenge you to read DN's recommended book as well as the other suggested reading Mere Christianity, and comment on it. I'd love to hear your comments on them.On a sidenote I'd like to point out that it is a scientific belief that the Earth is actually at the center of the universe… (pretty neat eh?)… Through the mapping of space in recent years, it has been established that the planets and stars are all moving outwards away from the earth… granted gravity has caused the earth to rotate the sun so I guess technically the Sun is the center… ha! But regardless you'd be pretty surprised at the scientific theses that this research points to…