Pleased Don't Give Kobe The Mvp

[gilbertology 0]

OK I now agree Kobe deserves the MVP after watching him posterize Nash last night. I mean booooyyyyyyaaaaabsolutely ridiculous dunk

[princeof56k 0]

Traditionally the MVP goes to the best player in the league, and if not, usually the 2nd best will take home the award. The reason is obvious. If some guy is the best player in the league, he is probably going to be valuable to his team. It's kind of hard not to be.Jordan should have won more MVPs (like over Malone who was probably the 2nd best player at the time), but not nearly as many as people think. Remember, Bird and Magic were still playing when Jordan was a young player.Not only is Nash not the best player in the league, he barely makes the top 5. The best 3 players in the league are Kobe, Lebron and Wade (I would put Dirk 4th). One of them should take home the award. Last year was different. The top 2 players last year were probably Shaq and Nash (some good players missed the playoffs and others missed too many games with injuries). Last year was the weakest MVP crowd I can remember.And I still think defense matters. It is half the game after all. And Nash is not just a poor defensive player, he's horrible. He basically plays half the game. I just cant give someone like that the MVP when there are other worthy candidates.And not any player can do what Kobe does with the same number of shots. Its hard to get that many shots in the first place. Everyone knows he's getting the ball and plans to score. People had entire defensive game plans to deny him the ball and stop him. None of them worked. And his large number of shot attempts is the biggest reason his rebounding numbers went down. You cant rebound when you're shooting fad-aways or over a double team. I also saw at times this year when Kobe was literally everywhere and doing it all (on both sides of the court). He wasnt just a scorer.

[Azreous 0]

OK I now agree Kobe deserves the MVP after watching him posterize Nash last night. I mean booooyyyyyyaaaaabsolutely ridiculous dunk

If Nash had dunked over Bryant, I might consider that a noteworthy achievement worth posterizing. Dunking over a 6'3" Canadian on a broken play? What does that prove?Nash played better than Bryant last night, but he was the only player on the Suns' offense worth a damn (Raja Bell was above average, but that's about it). Bryant was certainly better than in Game 1, though.

[Jadaki 0]

OK I now agree Kobe deserves the MVP after watching him posterize Nash last night. I mean booooyyyyyyaaaaabsolutely ridiculous dunk

It was also a charge, but Kobe gets that call all day and night. Still, dunk on someone who can actually dunk themselves and you might get someone excited about it.

Traditionally the MVP goes to the best player in the league, and if not, usually the 2nd best will take home the award. The reason is obvious. If some guy is the best player in the league, he is probably going to be valuable to his team. It's kind of hard not to be.Jordan should have won more MVPs (like over Malone who was probably the 2nd best player at the time), but not nearly as many as people think. Remember, Bird and Magic were still playing when Jordan was a young player.

No it doesn't, I will use your own point below to prove my point.

Not only is Nash not the best player in the league, he barely makes the top 5. The best 3 players in the league are Kobe, Lebron and Wade (I would put Dirk 4th). One of them should take home the award. Last year was different. The top 2 players last year were probably Shaq and Nash (some good players missed the playoffs and others missed too many games with injuries). Last year was the weakest MVP crowd I can remember.

Do you understand the role of a true point guard? I'm not talking about the Allen Iverson/Stephon Muarbury midget SG's who occupy the PG spot. Nash runs the game, he dictates flow, he sets up his teammates with easy shots, he hits clutch jumpers when needed.

And I still think defense matters. It is half the game after all. And Nash is not just a poor defensive player, he's horrible. He basically plays half the game. I just cant give someone like that the MVP when there are other worthy candidates.

Magic & Bird were not reknown for thier defence. Jordon on the other hand was defensive player of the year in 88 and on the all NBA defensive first team nearly every year. He was head and sholders above every player in the league on both ends of the court, and he has 3 MVP's. Other things matter in a MVP race than individual numbers, like how well your team does. Thats why Kobe and Lebron didn't get the needed votes for MVP, finish at the top of the conference, not the bottem if you want serious consideration.

And not any player can do what Kobe does with the same number of shots. Its hard to get that many shots in the first place. Everyone knows he's getting the ball and plans to score. People had entire defensive game plans to deny him the ball and stop him. None of them worked. And his large number of shot attempts is the biggest reason his rebounding numbers went down. You cant rebound when you're shooting fad-aways or over a double team. I also saw at times this year when Kobe was literally everywhere and doing it all (on both sides of the court). He wasnt just a scorer.

So chucking up shots that put you out of position, not passing to open teammates, and being a selfish prick make him the MVP? If he would have played all year like he did in game 3 agaisnt the Suns, I would be the first to say he deserves MVP, but he didn't. All the people crying foul about the cast surrounding him can kindly STFU also, they are looking pretty solid to me when actually given the ball once in a while.

[Guest Guest]

ok i take it back nash should give kobe his mvp

[princeof56k 0]

No it doesn't, I will use your own point below to prove my point.

Read my statement closely, and I think I'm correct. "Traditionally the MVP goes to the best player in the league, and if not, usually the 2nd best will take home the award." In cases where Jordan was beat out for MVP, that's usually the case.

Do you understand the role of a true point guard? I'm not talking about the Allen Iverson/Stephon Muarbury midget SG's who occupy the PG spot. Nash runs the game, he dictates flow, he sets up his teammates with easy shots, he hits clutch jumpers when needed.

Yes, I know the role of a true point guard. Why do you ask? I think Nash is the best point guard in the league. Being best point guard doesnt automatically make him the MVP. Stockton never got close to MVP and IMO is better than Nash.

Magic & Bird were not reknown for thier defence. Jordon on the other hand was defensive player of the year in 88 and on the all NBA defensive first team nearly every year. He was head and sholders above every player in the league on both ends of the court, and he has 3 MVP's.

I never said Bird or Magic were great defensive players. My opinion is that defense matters. I dont think it should totally be ignored. In a close race, shouldn't we look at these things? And I agree Jordan should have won more MVPs, but in the years he didnt win, he was beat by the next best player. I would have voted for Jordan, but I understand the arguement.

Other things matter in a MVP race than individual numbers, like how well your team does. Thats why Kobe and Lebron didn't get the needed votes for MVP, finish at the top of the conference, not the bottem if you want serious consideration.

Of course team perfromance matters, but you can not only count team performace. Good teams do better because they have better overall talent. Billups and Duncan are on the two best teams in the league, and I dont think either of them are the MVP.

So chucking up shots that put you out of position, not passing to open teammates, and being a selfish prick make him the MVP?

Youre right it doesnt, but thats not what I said. People think what Kobe did was easy. Its not. People dont like Kobe shooting so much, but he did what was necessary to win games and he get his team to the playoffs. The offensive game plan during the regular season was to have Kobe as the primary offensive force with teammates cleaning up on the boards and getting open shots on the perimeter (Kobe did pass every now and then). It's not pretty but its a perfectly acceptable strategy.If he would have played all year like he did in game 3 agaisnt the Suns, I would be the first to say he deserves MVP, but he didn't. All the people crying foul about the cast surrounding him can kindly STFU also, they are looking pretty solid to me when actually given the ball once in a while.Note: I bolded this statement because it would NOT let me quote it. Anyone know why? Anyways...I disagree with this. Early in the year, Kobe's teammates were not capable of playing this way (new player, triangle offense, ect). Would they have made the playoffs by him relying on his teammates for offense? Maybe. Maybe not. The new Laker strategy is working largely because of the opponent. The Suns have played horrible defense (with the exception of game 4) and made the rest of the Lakers look extremely good. The Lakers are getting so many open looks its unreal.The Lakers are winning this series (so far) because of Phil Jackson. I love D'Antoni but he's been outcoached here.

[Jadaki 0]

If he would have played all year like he did in game 3 agaisnt the Suns, I would be the first to say he deserves MVP, but he didn't. All the people crying foul about the cast surrounding him can kindly STFU also, they are looking pretty solid to me when actually given the ball once in a while.Note: I bolded this statement because it would NOT let me quote it. Anyone know why? Anyways...I disagree with this. Early in the year, Kobe's teammates were not capable of playing this way (new player, triangle offense, ect). Would they have made the playoffs by him relying on his teammates for offense? Maybe. Maybe not. The new Laker strategy is working largely because of the opponent. The Suns have played horrible defense (with the exception of game 4) and made the rest of the Lakers look extremely good. The Lakers are getting so many open looks its unreal.The Lakers are winning this series (so far) because of Phil Jackson. I love D'Antoni but he's been outcoached here.

Yea, the new forum software goes retarded on you if you try to have more than 5 quotes in a post.I'll disagree with you about his teammates being incapable the beginning of the season. Lamar Odum is the same player he has always been. He is outplaying Shawn Marion this series too, so people saying that Nash has another MVP candidate on thier team can stop the nonsense unless you think Odum is one too.I have to agree with Phil being an amazing coach and he is proving it this series by getting Kobe to pass the ball to places they are more likely to score. The Suns are missing Amare big time now, and the Lakers are exploiting that weakness in the middle. It's definetly smart game planning, but those players still have to execute. If they were as bad as every "Kobe for MVP" supporter claims they would be missing these open shots everytime.One other thing, there is plenty of support for Billups being the MVP. I don't think he should get it either, but if you look at the games where the Pistons lose, it's usually on a night where Billups is off a bit. They can suffer other players having bad nights, but not him. And if Duncan was healthy all year, he would be right there for MVP also.

[Jadaki 0]

Whose the MVP? Game 6 stats...Steve Nash: 9-14 from the field, 13-13 from the line for 32 points. 13 Assists, 2 boards, 3 turnovers, 1 foul.Kobe Bryant: 20-35 from the field, 5-6 from the line for 50 points, 5 assists, 8 rebounds, 7 turnovers, 4 fouls.Nash shot a way better percentage, killed it from the FT line exp in the clutch, 13 assists to just 3 turnovers... that means a positive assist to turnover ratio something Kobe doesn't know about. He also only commited 1 foul the entire game, meaning he isn't putting the other team at the line. Isn't it funny how the first time Kobe breaks 30 points in the series they lose?Will be fun to see then back in Pheonix for game 7 with bell back in the lineup.I'll set the early over under for Kobe at 46.5 points.

[Azreous 0]

Isn't it funny how the first time Kobe breaks 30 points in the series they lose?

The rest of your post is certainly true, but this is the important part. I imagine there will be a couple people who jump on and say "Kobe's the only reason they were in that game, especially those three's down the stretch, he's the MVP!" The 3's he hit were sick with Marion in his face, I'll give you that, but Kobe scoring 30+ is EXACTLY what the Suns want. The more he abandons his teammates like the "MVP" he is, the more likely the Suns are to win.Kobe hit every shot down the stretch, and the Lakers lost by 8. What's going to happen when he drops an 8-for-23 in Game Seven?

Steve Nash: 9-14 from the field, 13-13 from the line for 32 points. 13 Assists, 2 boards, 3 turnovers, 1 foul, 1 win.Kobe Bryant: 20-35 from the field, 5-6 from the line for 50 points, 5 assists, 8 rebounds, 7 turnovers, 4 fouls, 1 loss.

Oh, and FYP.

[princeof56k 0]

He also only commited 1 foul the entire game, meaning he isn't putting the other team at the line.

LOL. This cracked me up. All that points out is that Nash doesnt play defense. In order to foul, you have to at least be NEAR an opposing player.Anways, Nash had a great game tonight and has done a great job of leading his team. I'm not sure what it says about the MVP race. We already watched these guys play in 82 games over the regular season. One game isnt going to sway me.I think Nash is a great player and the best point guard in the game. I just dont think he's the MVP.

[keith crime 8]

Didn't Nash basically lose game three himself with two huge turnovers?If I had to guess on which player wouldn't come up big in game 7 it wouldn't Kobe.

[Azreous 0]

Didn't Nash basically lose game three himself with two huge turnovers?If I had to guess on which player wouldn't come up big in game 7 it wouldn't Kobe.

One huge turnover which was his fault for being off-balance, and the worst officiating call of the playoffs so far. This series should be over, 4-2 Suns. You can't even begin to try and tell me that was a jump ball in OT with Walton. I invite you to go watch the replay again and pick out the three things wrong with a jump ball call.

[keith crime 8]

cool didnt see it just read the recap

[iggymcfly 0]

You can blame Kobe for the loss if you want, but the fact is that the Lakers' offense played the best it has all series. They shot over 55% from the field and scored 118 points. The reason they lost that game is because they didn't play defense. They either gave up open layups or waited until the player was going to score anyway and then fouled.And if anyone keeps the Lakers offense from running properly, it's Smush Parker. Not only can he not make a shot, but he knows he can't make one and the Suns know it too. They basically just left him wide open last night, and he gave it up anyway, and tried to pass to players that were already covered.Saying the Lakers lost because of Kobe's increased scoring is ridiculous if rather predictable.

[princeof56k 0]

One huge turnover which was his fault for being off-balance, and the worst officiating call of the playoffs so far. This series should be over, 4-2 Suns. You can't even begin to try and tell me that was a jump ball in OT with Walton. I invite you to go watch the replay again and pick out the three things wrong with a jump ball call.

I agree you cant really blame Nash there. Bad calls mixed in with bad breaks. Oh well.Since you've actually watched the series, do you think way too many fouls are being call on both sides? These games are taking forever.

[Azreous 0]

I agree you cant really blame Nash there. Bad calls mixed in with bad breaks. Oh well.Since you've actually watched the series, do you think way too many fouls are being call on both sides? These games are taking forever.

Yes. I believe at the end of the third quarter of last night's game alone, the fouls went something like this:Lakers: Walton, Parker, Brown 4 fouls; Sasha 3.Suns: Diaw, Thomas 4 fouls; Marion, Barbosa 3.For a series that supposedly isn't very physical, that's either a lot of ticky-tack fouls or there's actually some defense being played despite the goudy scores. I happen to think it's a little of both.

[ogmaster 0]

Seriously, this is getting pathetic. First Nash winning was just freakin horrible. He wasnt even the best player on the damn team but oh, they wont more game then the year before, big freakin deal. If that were the criteria for MVP, they would give it to most rookies that take a crappy club to a .500 club. Then this year, if Kobe wins, it's a complete poularity race and total BS. What Kobe has done is pretty much the same thing Iverson has done since he's beein the league. He's had a lot of high scoring games yet surrounded by mediocre players and sometimes having a season where he goes to the playoffs.There's a simple formula that they have always used for MVPs up until the damn Nash thing. They look at the best team and pick the best single player on that team if there is one. That's why Detroit doesnt have a MVP canidate since it's such a "team oriented" team. In this year's case, that would be Nowinstki since both the Spurs and the Pistons dont have that one person that stands above the rest.

[iggymcfly 0]

Then this year, if Kobe wins, it's a complete poularity race and total BS. What Kobe has done is pretty much the same thing Iverson has done since he's beein the league. He's had a lot of high scoring games yet surrounded by mediocre players and sometimes having a season where he goes to the playoffs.

Oh really? Tell me when Iverson averaged 35 PPG. He never did. In fact, no one has since Jordan back in the 80s. Kobe did something this season scoring the basketball that just doesn't happen in today's NBA, and as a result he's giving a bad Lakers the chance to go deep in the playoffs.I'm not saying that Dirk's not a worthy candidate, because he is, and I could easily see the two of them being named co-MVPs if the voting was done objectively, but to dismiss Kobe's year as a run-of-the-mill season for a talented scorer is downright ridiculous. It should be:1. Kobe2. Dirk3. LeBron4. NashNash did have a good year, (yes better than his MVP year last season), but there were just so many strong candidates this year. Kobe had the best scoring season in 15 years, Dirk transformed the Mavs into serious championship contenders, and LeBron's scoring 30+ PPG while passing the ball like Magic and singlehandedly dragging the Cavs into the second round.

[ogmaster 0]

Oh really? Tell me when Iverson averaged 35 PPG. He never did. In fact, no one has since Jordan back in the 80s. Kobe did something this season scoring the basketball that just doesn't happen in today's NBA, and as a result he's giving a bad Lakers the chance to go deep in the playoffs.I'm not saying that Dirk's not a worthy candidate, because he is, and I could easily see the two of them being named co-MVPs if the voting was done objectively, but to dismiss Kobe's year as a run-of-the-mill season for a talented scorer is downright ridiculous. It should be:1. Kobe2. Dirk3. LeBron4. NashNash did have a good year, (yes better than his MVP year last season), but there were just so many strong candidates this year. Kobe had the best scoring season in 15 years, Dirk transformed the Mavs into serious championship contenders, and LeBron's scoring 30+ PPG while passing the ball like Magic and singlehandedly dragging the Cavs into the second round.

So what 35PPG = Automatic MVP? That's complete BS and any NBA fan knows it. It doesnt matter if you have 35PPG or 25PPG, if you're team is nothing special, you do not deserve a MVP trophy. You mentioned Jordan and he won the MVP trophy five times but he lead the league in scoring in twice as many times. You do not get the MVP trophy when you have a team that's barely over .500. That doesnt happen and with good reason.

[Azreous 0]

Tonight's score and Kobe's contribution in the second half ought to be enough reason for him not to be even mentioned in the MVP conversation. I still don't think Nash should win it, but the idea of Kobe as MVP is ****ing ludicrous.I especially enjoyed the whole ear-cup-to-listen-to-the-crowd-taunting-and-then-smugly-nodding bit in the second quarter when they were already down double digits. You don't look like an arrogant jackass at all, Kobe. Enjoy the offseason.

[princeof56k 0]

Looking over the past MVPs, it's hard to come up with a good patern (it is people doing the voting after all). I would have to look at each year in detail to see exactly what was going on. Some years looked funny, but after looking at them in more detail, the choice usually made a lot of sense.It's a good point that quite often the player that won the award was on the best team. It's of course no coincednce that usually the best players play on the best teams. The best player on the best team in each conference will usually be in the top 5 players in the league and a great reason for the teams success. So usually there's no issue for voting the top player on the top team. The problem is we dont really have that this year. Dirk comes very close, but I just dont see him as the MVP. If Duncan had been healthy the last couple of years this discussion wouldnt even taking place. He no doubt would've won last year, and eventhough he played very well this year and played in a lot of games, I think the injuries have taken a toll on him.I also think times have changed since the old days. Paticularly, expansion and the salary cap. Some of these great players will be on subpar (if not outright losing) teams for years. Not due to their play but rather to the competency of their GM. Sure Kobe caused his situation, but LeBron, Garnett, Iverson have not. Would Wade be an MVP candidate if Shaq (who Riley went out and got) wasnt on his team? My guess is probably not. The team's record matters alot, but by putting all the value on team record, the GMs performance is going to matter way too much.

[Jadaki 0]

Seriously, this is getting pathetic. First Nash winning was just freakin horrible. He wasnt even the best player on the damn team but oh, they wont more game then the year before, big freakin deal.

Who's better Marion? He got schooled most this series by Odum, he's not the best player on the team, Nash makes him better. They also didn't win more games than last year, but they had one of the best records in the league without Amare, after losing Joe Johnson and Q Richarson. They bring in a group of players you never heard of and Nash leads them to a 54 win season. Don't try and tell me that Barbosa and Diaw were household names before this year, they still probably aren't except in Pheonix.

If that were the criteria for MVP, they would give it to most rookies that take a crappy club to a .500 club.

haha, no.

Then this year, if Kobe wins, it's a complete poularity race and total BS. What Kobe has done is pretty much the same thing Iverson has done since he's beein the league. He's had a lot of high scoring games yet surrounded by mediocre players and sometimes having a season where he goes to the playoffs.

Kobe isn't going to win any populatiry races, he doesn't have the best reputation with reporters. Let me know when Kobe takes a squad full of scrubs to the finals, k? Iverson did it without putting up 35 a game.

There's a simple formula that they have always used for MVPs up until the damn Nash thing. They look at the best team and pick the best single player on that team if there is one. That's why Detroit doesnt have a MVP canidate since it's such a "team oriented" team. In this year's case, that would be Nowinstki since both the Spurs and the Pistons dont have that one person that stands above the rest.

I don't know if it's quite that simple, but it's a better way to look at it than who can jack up 40 shots in a game and piss of his teammates. Also Billups was getting fairly serious MVP consideration, and Dirk has probably been slighted this year because he doesn't fill up the highlight reels, he just wins games.

[Jadaki 0]

I also think times have changed since the old days. Paticularly, expansion and the salary cap. Some of these great players will be on subpar (if not outright losing) teams for years. Not due to their play but rather to the competency of their GM. Sure Kobe caused his situation, but LeBron, Garnett, Iverson have not. Would Wade be an MVP candidate if Shaq (who Riley went out and got) wasnt on his team? My guess is probably not. The team's record matters alot, but by putting all the value on team record, the GMs performance is going to matter way too much.

Lebron is in the 2nd round, Iverson has been to the finals and Garnett the western conference finals in recent years. In fact I thought Garnett deserved the MVP that year but they gave it to Duncan if I remember right.Wade would probably get MVP consideration if you look at what he does when Shaq isn't on the floor, he already carries the Heat to most it's victories. Shaq isn't the same player he was 3 years ago. That's Wade's team, no doubt.As far as the GM's mattering to much, not really. When Jordan won it in 88, it was because he was clearly having the best year of any player in the league despite the fact that the rest his team wasn't good, most of the players were very young and needed to time to develop.

[princeof56k 0]

Lebron is in the 2nd round, Iverson has been to the finals and Garnett the western conference finals in recent years. In fact I thought Garnett deserved the MVP that year but they gave it to Duncan if I remember right.Wade would probably get MVP consideration if you look at what he does when Shaq isn't on the floor, he already carries the Heat to most it's victories. Shaq isn't the same player he was 3 years ago. That's Wade's team, no doubt.As far as the GM's mattering to much, not really. When Jordan won it in 88, it was because he was clearly having the best year of any player in the league despite the fact that the rest his team wasn't good, most of the players were very young and needed to time to develop.

Well I pretty much agree with you here. I was mainly argruing against "the best player on the best team gets it" point of view. My main point was that the best team in each conference are usually that good for a variety of reasons. Good lead players, good role players, good coaching. And in all of those things managment plays a key role. But I still think winning matters of course. My minimum requirement is that the team should be at least .500 (gotta have some type of requirement).I slightly disagree about Wade there. Sure it's his team, but Shaq is still a force when he wants to be. Opposinng defenses are still keying on him. And considering how weak the center position is now days, he can still be considered the best center in the league (maybe 2nd best if you think Yao passed him this year).And I'm mainly looking at the regular season. I dont count the playoffs when I'm thinking about the award since the voting takes place before the playoffs.All this doent matter now anyways. I just saw Nash won the thing. Congradulations to Steve Nash.

[Jadaki 0]

Steve Nash of the Phoenix Suns was named the winner of the Maurice Podoloff Trophy as the NBA’s Most Valuable Player for the 2005-06 season, the NBA announced today. He joins Hall of Famer Magic Johnson as the only point guards in league history to capture multiple MVP trophies and becomes one of only nine players to win the award in consecutive seasons.Top 5 in the MVp voting.Nash (924 points) LeBron James (688 points)Dirk Nowitzki (544 points)Kobe Bryant (483 points)Chauncey Billups (430 points). Kobe finishes 4th, which is probably about right.Others receving votes: Dwyane Wade (87) Elton Brand (50) Tim Duncan (33) Tony Parker (9) Allen Iverson (1) Shawn Marion (1)