Rant Warning: Mtts And Skill

[hblask 1]

Honestly, and this may surprise you, but playing repeated tournaments will make you a much more well rounded player than playing a lot of cash games. You will have to learn how to make moves at certain pots and when to slow down and be patient. These skills do not exactly transfer perfectly to a deepstack cash game scenario, but they will serve you well in the long run.

Believe it or not, I was just discussing this with my wife this weekend, how my game is very narrow (low-limit NL Holdem) and how I need to start working on all the other skills -- Limit, Omaha, Stud, SnGs, and of course, MTTs, so it's good to have that reinforced. In particular, a comment you made above (not included) stood out, about playing good cards OR weak opponents in MTTs. That second part is the part I have trouble with, so now that you mention it, that is probably the hole that keeps me from success in these tournaments. I see weakness and my brain screams "it's a trap, stay away". You know, cuz that one time in that one tournament, the guy had flopped the set.....

You seem to have a quench for learning more about tournament play, so I encourage you to check out tourney strat, and especially the Pokerstars 180 person sit n go thread. You will find a lot of good information from a lot of good posters in that forum.Also, I must say-your first post reeked of a "I took two bad beats in a row and can't handle it" post, but you have recovered very well from that and asked a bunch of good questions. Very commendable.

Yeah, I was afraid it would sound like that, but I guess maybe my specific questions weren't clear in my own head until after reading some of the discussion in this thread. So thanks to you and everyone who helped bring this around to more specific questions and answers!

[anselm 0]

I see weakness and my brain screams "it's a trap, stay away". You know, cuz that one time in that one tournament, the guy had flopped the set.....

Anybody who's learned poker in the last 3 years knows that the key to this game is a) bluffing constantly b) always slowplaying. Thank you ESPN. In reality, sometimes a check is just a check. They only bet the minimum because they have no cajones. They only limped because their cards really do suck.Also, you may want to try your hand at SnG's for a while. Will give you a taste of tourney play without having to wade through so many. I went from 5-handed SnG's to 10, to 20, and so on. My staple right now are 180's, ie a MTT. Oh and just a quick tip: I think the vast majority of winning tourney players will say that online your best bet is to start off uber-TAG and survive.

[devhdcdevhdc 0]

Well,, luck is a good thing at times, but I like to believe it has alot to do with skill aswell, I'm devhdc, and this is my story:Sometime last year I won a big tournament, granting me just under $130,000, now I've always been good at MTT's, and while most people say the less of a startingfield the better, naturally im inclined to agree, however, most of the tourney's I'd play would still have a field of about 800-1500 people, sometimes upwards of 4000.Now, imagine 800 people paying about $1K each for a tournament, noone wants to go first and as such the players are quite tight, and it's hard to extract any chips from them without badbeating them or people that put too much value in big cards.So what i did was that i decided i'd like to train for a HUGE field, incase i'd ever want to play in the WSOP main-event (I've actually gotten 3 packages from various sites, and i've sold 2 and gave a friend of mine 1 so far) so i took up Freerolls.Ok, so where is the value in freerolls you ask? The simple answer is: There isn't, but that wasn't what appealed to me either, it was the fact that i'd have to compete with absolute nuts in a field of 10,000 or more people, and use more skill in my play then the luck they'd have.So, counting from this morning i've now made 193 out of 603 final tables, 69 1:st and the rest varies between 2:nd and 8:th (That's right, i've never finished 10:th or 9:th on a final table) and i've generated about 26,100$ in prizes from $0 stakes.How's that for a good return on a 0 investment? =]

[hblask 1]

Anybody who's learned poker in the last 3 years knows that the key to this game is a) bluffing constantly B) always slowplaying. Thank you ESPN. In reality, sometimes a check is just a check. They only bet the minimum because they have no cajones. They only limped because their cards really do suck.

Ah, but you've never seen how bad my judgement is in distinguishing between the two... (kidding, sort of)

Also, you may want to try your hand at SnG's for a while. Will give you a taste of tourney play without having to wade through so many. I went from 5-handed SnG's to 10, to 20, and so on. My staple right now are 180's, ie a MTT. Oh and just a quick tip: I think the vast majority of winning tourney players will say that online your best bet is to start off uber-TAG and survive.

Yeah, I've played them on and off, and what I've found is that, at least in the cheapest ones, I can get in the money (3rd) by just not losing (the uber-TAG theory), and second with a few well-timed hands. Winning has been a little harder to come by, usually because of one of two reasons: the usual bad luck of happening to get a JJ when my opponent has a QQ, or, more importantly, a mental lapse in the final HU match. (I either get sick of being pushed around by obvious steals and give away a big one, or start taking dumb chances on mediocre hands just because I'm happy to take 2nd and am willing to gamble for 1st). Anyway, I don't have full statistics on my SnGs, but my guess is that I'm a little bit behind, but not so much that I don't go back to them once in a while, just because they are fun, and the 30% ITM structure is hard to beat. I figure if I can't make the top 3 out of 10, I should just hang it up.So are SnGs little mini-boot camps for the bigger MTTs? Is that all-important mindset that Bizzle discussed the same for both? Because when I'm "on" in a SnG, I feel like top two is a given, it's only a question of whether I'll get first. Unfortunately, I can't find that zone at will, it's only about halfway through a SnG that I figure out that I shouldn't have entered it, just as I've just decided the EP all-in is bluffing against my A8s, and I go out in 5th place.

[Bizzle 0]

Well,, luck is a good thing at times, but I like to believe it has alot to do with skill aswell, I'm devhdc, and this is my story:Sometime last year I won a big tournament, granting me just under $130,000, now I've always been good at MTT's, and while most people say the less of a startingfield the better, naturally im inclined to agree, however, most of the tourney's I'd play would still have a field of about 800-1500 people, sometimes upwards of 4000.Now, imagine 800 people paying about $1K each for a tournament, noone wants to go first and as such the players are quite tight, and it's hard to extract any chips from them without badbeating them or people that put too much value in big cards.So what i did was that i decided i'd like to train for a HUGE field, incase i'd ever want to play in the WSOP main-event (I've actually gotten 3 packages from various sites, and i've sold 2 and gave a friend of mine 1 so far) so i took up Freerolls.Ok, so where is the value in freerolls you ask? The simple answer is: There isn't, but that wasn't what appealed to me either, it was the fact that i'd have to compete with absolute nuts in a field of 10,000 or more people, and use more skill in my play then the luck they'd have.So, counting from this morning i've now made 193 out of 603 final tables, 69 1:st and the rest varies between 2:nd and 8:th (That's right, i've never finished 10:th or 9:th on a final table) and i've generated about 26,100$ in prizes from $0 stakes.How's that for a good return on a 0 investment? =]

Are you trying to bait me, or do you just feel like throwing out horrible generalizations that are completely off base?

Replace "horrible generalizations" with "ridiculous lies" and "completely off base" with "obviously complete crap" and I'd say you'd have a general idea in terms of my attitude towards this post. I'd give you the obligatory TP/MM, but apparently you already have. Way to take a thread that started off very poorly, improved very rapidly, and now you have brought it to a new low.

[strategy 4]

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[Bizzle 0]

Alright, back to our regularly scheduled programming

Ah, but you've never seen how bad my judgement is in distinguishing between the two... (kidding, sort of)

You will learn, it will take time and effort.

Yeah, I've played them on and off, and what I've found is that, at least in the cheapest ones, I can get in the money (3rd) by just not losing (the uber-TAG theory), and second with a few well-timed hands. Winning has been a little harder to come by, usually because of one of two reasons: the usual bad luck of happening to get a JJ when my opponent has a QQ, or, more importantly, a mental lapse in the final HU match. (I either get sick of being pushed around by obvious steals and give away a big one, or start taking dumb chances on mediocre hands just because I'm happy to take 2nd and am willing to gamble for 1st). Anyway, I don't have full statistics on my SnGs, but my guess is that I'm a little bit behind, but not so much that I don't go back to them once in a while, just because they are fun, and the 30% ITM structure is hard to beat. I figure if I can't make the top 3 out of 10, I should just hang it up.So are SnGs little mini-boot camps for the bigger MTTs? Is that all-important mindset that Bizzle discussed the same for both? Because when I'm "on" in a SnG, I feel like top two is a given, it's only a question of whether I'll get first. Unfortunately, I can't find that zone at will, it's only about halfway through a SnG that I figure out that I shouldn't have entered it, just as I've just decided the EP all-in is bluffing against my A8s, and I go out in 5th place.

Sit n go's are somewhat like MTTs, a lot of the same skills are covered, especially at lower limits. However, sit n gos stress shorthanded play, while MTTs only get down to less than 6 handed when there are 11/10 left, or when there are 6 or less people left, so the midgame and endgame elements are quite different.

[MyPlayIsRAB 0]

from what the OP said, he is partly right. moving up in the buyins does remove a lot of the donks. i went from normally playing 5$ ones, tried 10$s..they were okay, 20$s were a bit better and last week i played a 50$ and it was like real poker. it was fun. but there was still some donkish play even at that level which is one of the higher online MTT buyins except weeklys

[anselm 0]

...more importantly, a mental lapse in the final HU match. (I either get sick of being pushed around by obvious steals and give away a big one, or start taking dumb chances on mediocre hands just because I'm happy to take 2nd and am willing to gamble for 1st).

I totally understand this. My entire take on HU at this point was radically altered when I discovered SAGE, Kill Phil, and/or other push-or-fold systems. I highly recommend them and we can discuss these in more detail elsewhere if you prefer.Bizzle is right on some of the differences between SnG's and MTT's so do take note of those. But one of my main reasons for steering clear of cash games is that I love the feeling of WINNING. Sure the rush of raking a monster pot in a ring game is pretty sweet, but to me there's nothing like the feeling after taking down a tourney. So start with SnG's to break this cold streak then slowly increase the field. A MTT win feels a meeeellion times better than a 1 or 2-table SnG.

[Vick12 0]

Alright, back to our regularly scheduled programmingYou will learn, it will take time and effort.Sit n go's are somewhat like MTTs, a lot of the same skills are covered, especially at lower limits. However, sit n gos stress shorthanded play, while MTTs only get down to less than 6 handed when there are 11/10 left, or when there are 6 or less people left, so the midgame and endgame elements are quite different.

Bizzle please..it's getting old.MTT's are for suckers.Sit and Go's are for suckersNL Cash is for suckersLimit is the ONLY game u can play AND make money online...Other than FREEROLLS. These are easily the best way to prepare for the WSOP ME. Also, they are FREE...even a mind as astute as yours can't argue it's much better to enter for free than to pay for entry.Devheddc...I have been praying every day that someone could come and show me just how easy poker is.TY...You have showed me the formula and I am going to run w/ it.Look for me tonight boy's and girl's...I will be only in freerolls and it should be eay to turn the money I win into millions.Again..TY!!!!

from what the OP said, he is partly right. moving up in the buyins does remove a lot of the donks. i went from normally playing 5$ ones, tried 10$s..they were okay, 20$s were a bit better and last week i played a 50$ and it was like real poker. it was fun. but there was still some donkish play even at that level which is one of the higher online MTT buyins except weeklys

You'd be shocked. In higher buy in events you will often see guys limp UNDER THE GUN w/ hands like 22 when the blinds are really high...and then call off 1/2 their stack to a reraise.It's truly amazing.

[HoosierAlum 0]

from what the OP said, he is partly right. moving up in the buyins does remove a lot of the donks. i went from normally playing 5$ ones, tried 10$s..they were okay, 20$s were a bit better and last week i played a 50$ and it was like real poker. it was fun. but there was still some donkish play even at that level which is one of the higher online MTT buyins except weeklys

$50 buy ins are still mid-limit buy ins. The play at the $50s is almost exactly the same as the $20s, generally very poor. $50s arent really the higher level of online MTT buyins either, as there are many $150+ tourneys daily on every site.

[devhdcdevhdc 0]

I totally understand this. My entire take on HU at this point was radically altered when I discovered SAGE, Kill Phil, and/or other push-or-fold systems. I highly recommend them and we can discuss these in more detail elsewhere if you prefer.Bizzle is right on some of the differences between SnG's and MTT's so do take note of those. But one of my main reasons for steering clear of cash games is that I love the feeling of WINNING. Sure the rush of raking a monster pot in a ring game is pretty sweet, but to me there's nothing like the feeling after taking down a tourney. So start with SnG's to break this cold streak then slowly increase the field. A MTT win feels a meeeellion times better than a 1 or 2-table SnG.

So there are actual HU-strategies? I've always played my own way in HU-situations, usually i'll come out on top because im way too aggressive for most people to handle, but sometimes i make terrible, and i do mean terrible decisions about the opponents, so the big problem for me is underestimating an opponents actual strength.I've tried to solve this with mathematics and basic logic, but i never seem to able to get off of my high horse, so i'd be very intrested in discussing strategies with you.

I think the general consensus is that this argument is retarded (sw)Yes, there are different forms of poker. Limit/NL/omaha/omaha hi/lo/razz/stud/2-7draw/5card.... Don't all of these games involve luck?The age old question in poker is how much of it is skill, and how much of it is luck?You can look at it from a couple of different angles:1. You need to get good cards to win (luck) and play those cards well to extract the maximum amount of money (skill)2. You don't get as many good cards but the ones you get you play well with position, reads on players, and a good bluff here or there.I hear things like "mtt's are for suckers"... the only way i think this could apply is to Low Limit Online MTT's... otherwise you're essentially saying that the WSOP is full of crapshoots?There's no question that Luck is involved in a winning poker players career, but how much is luck, and how much is skill?No. One. Knows.

If you suffer from constant bad luck you should probably try Badugi, worst hand wins, A234 in all different suites is the nuts, so it's kinda like razz (i think that's what it's called right?) except you get 4 cards.

[WhatArunAA 0]

I finally took 1 down this weekend after 9 final table showings in the last month, soo many top 10 finishes but no wins, and now this past weekend, i scored 1.I'm gonna safely say that making a final table is 80% skill and 20% luckbut winning MTT's is 80% luck and 20% skillcheers idiot[/quote/}no way.. 80 percent.. bs... you need to win coin flips when it gets down to final 40 people... getting ITM is 80% I think.. but no way 80 % getting to the FT

[hblask 1]

I totally understand this. My entire take on HU at this point was radically altered when I discovered SAGE, Kill Phil, and/or other push-or-fold systems. I highly recommend them and we can discuss these in more detail elsewhere if you prefer.

Do you have a link to the quick version of these? Otherwise, I'm interested in a new thread or other references. BTW, HU is not a huge problem for me in SnGs, despite my admitted impatience. I don't like HU in cash games, but in SnGs, it seems reasonably simple, at least at the levels I'm playing at, when I have the patience for it. Getting to that stage is my weakness. In fact, the more I think about it, and reading the advice from you guys, my early game is fine, my end game is fine, it's that middle game that needs work, both in SnGs and MTTs. I think Bizzle said that stage is about getting good reads on weak opponents, and as a relative beginner, well, I guess I'll get there eventually, but it's not there yet. I think I'll try a 20 or 30 person SnG later today and see if I can focus on that part of the game and stop worrying about cards, instead worrying about the players.

Bizzle is right on some of the differences between SnG's and MTT's so do take note of those. But one of my main reasons for steering clear of cash games is that I love the feeling of WINNING. Sure the rush of raking a monster pot in a ring game is pretty sweet, but to me there's nothing like the feeling after taking down a tourney. So start with SnG's to break this cold streak then slowly increase the field. A MTT win feels a meeeellion times better than a 1 or 2-table SnG.

Yeah, I think that's what's missing from the cash games. Sure, at the end of the month, it's fun to count up those cash game winnings, but on a daily basis, it's sort of blah. Of course, in the end, poker to me is a puzzle, a big complicated slow-motion puzzle at the intersection of math and psychology, and that's what drives me. And winning a SnG gives that immediate gratification that says, for now at least, you solved it. I'm looking forward to the first MTT win, that's gotta be like crack. I ordered HOH and HOH2, they are on the way. Thanks for all the encouragement and advice.Oh, and thanks to Bizzle for the link to that other thread with the detailed strategy. If that is not stickied somewhere, it should be.

[Jordan 1]

Wow. You are going to be dissapointed when you finally win that MTT and realize the void is still there.:xSure it's great to win tournies, everyone wants to...but to say it's going to be like crack? haha..be careful with your winnings..is all i have to say...if the moment comes.- Jordan

[anselm 0]

Lee Jones' article in CP on SAGE:http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...5250&m_id=65582An article by Sklansky that may be applicable, though not specifically written for HU play:http://web.archive.org/web/20030404002222/...re&art_id=13194"Kill Phil" is a new book out that I have not yet read, only read about but appears to take this type of system farther and/or flesh it out some. My own hyper-aggressive HU play at the end of an SnG or MTT is based on some of the above plus my own tweaking. One of its advantages that I'll mention quickly is that it completely throws off your opponent. Many people like me find themselves as the tightest person at the table. At a FT by now I will probably have been "caught" a few times but overall I'm probably seen as typical TAG. When you just go berserk heads-up it can really throw them for a loop. Especially since they'll just think you're now playing like a maniac when in reality there's a pretty careful method to the madness.p.s. - Jordan, pretty sure his "crack" comment was just an analogy. On the other hand, go win Stars' Sunday $1M and then tell me you aren't on an unbelievable high.

[Bizzle 0]

p.s. - Jordan, pretty sure his "crack" comment was just an analogy.

Nope, I wasn't comparing the addictive qualities of online tournaments to the super drug known as crack. I was saying that it is like crack because soon all of your money will be gone on it, and all you will be left with is some tattered pants, a salty taste in your mouth, and bad memories about how you just paid for your last buy-in.

[hblask 1]

OK, this isn't really a brag post, since it's not exactly scaling Everest here, but thanks to the advice and links provided in this thread, especially from Bizzle and anselm, I played a 20 player SnG today and tried using the methods and strategies in the links provided. After an early bad beat that almost took me out of it, I fought my way back and finished 2nd for a $30 win (in a $5 tournament). It may be the first time I got through one without any major mistakes (okay, maybe one medium mistake, but I got away with it this time), and the strategies in those articles worked to a T. (I've won 10 player SnGs before, but not because of flawless play, just lucky timing on my multiple mistakes). Thanks guys, hopefully, this is the first baby step in the next phase of my learning. It's obvious I need to be even MORE aggressive when I get a good hand, but at one point I was in the lead in HU, so I can't complain -- I certainly had my chances. I'm coming for YOU soon!