Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation

[FullMontyM1 0]

Those are very big words Monty. I cant wait to not see his non-answer.

I don't want to come across as pompous. I've honestly been restraining my word choice a great deal. Having gone to law school, I will forever suffer under the curse of diseconomy of expression (one of the reasons I love the way DN, and others with his style, write, is that there is a Hemingway-simplicity, like the rat-a-tat-tat of a machine gun, to their words, much in contrast to the flowery, ebb-and-flow of people who find themselves unable to narrow their word choice).Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

In our hypothetical which we are currently discussing, no one comes to the island.Therefore, for the person in question to experience God, they will have had to do it on their own, in their own mind, or by direct divine intervention by God.If either of these occur, and they become righteous through this process, and inherit the kingdom of God, then they have done so without ever being Christian (in your sense of the word) and without the Bible.You can not change the hypothetical and insert a missionary appearing at the last minute to save the day and your argument (deux ex machina). You must take the hypothetical, as it stands, and reconcile the hypothetical with your point of view (given the above clarifications and reiterrations).Monty

first off, i wasnt inserting the missionary into the hypothetical I was merely giving an example of situations that occur when people "seek the Lord" second, As you have said many times, God is not in time and able to do many things. Do you think that just maybe if they person took the time to seek the Lord that He would not show or send a sign? I mean we only have a bible full of miracles to choose from. God works in many ways. Third, I have no doubt that if this guy truely seeks the Lord that he will find Him. Bible says God will not disappoint those who seek Him.

Those are very big words Monty. I cant wait to not see his non-answer.

where were the big words? i didnt see themand so far it appears of us 3, I am the only one willing to explain myself. I am still waiting to hear about how God has "other" plans for those who die without knowing Him.

[FullMontyM1 0]

second, As you have said many times, God is not in time and able to do many things. Do you think that just maybe if they person took the time to seek the Lord that He would not show or send a sign? I mean we only have a bible full of miracles to choose from. God works in many ways.

Now that you have said this, I have made my point. I accept your concession.God does work in many ways. His ways are mysterious to us. I do not know the ways in which he works. You do not know the ways in which he works.Therefore, God is able to save anyone God chooses to save, regardless of whether they have been exposed to the Gospel by other men and women.Now that you have agreed with me, this dicussion is over.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Now that you have said this, I have made my point. I accept your concession.God does work in many ways. His ways are mysterious to us. I do not know the ways in which he works. You do not know the ways in which he works.Therefore, God is able to save anyone God chooses to save, regardless of whether they have been exposed to the Gospel by other men and women.Now that you have agreed with me, this dicussion is over.Monty

only way to the Father is through the Son John 14:6you still cant get past that verse

[FullMontyM1 0]

only way to the Father is through the Son John 14:6you still cant get past that verse

Even though I have quoted the entirety of John 14 to show that your selective quotation of that passage is suspect, and not necessarily subject to the interpretation you give it....Let's say you're right about your interpretation...Well then you've just contradicted yourself.

As you have said many times, God is not in time and able to do many things. Do you think that just maybe if they person took the time to seek the Lord that He would not show or send a sign? I mean we only have a bible full of miracles to choose from. God works in many ways.

Whatever the -exact- structure of how it happens, you have already admitted that "God works in many ways." If he saves our hypothetical deaf, dumb and blind castaway on the deserted island, then however he does that is a mystery. It may or may not be "through the Son," but we have no way of knowing. He somehow saved that person that has no knowledge of Jesus. If he saved that person through a miracle, then the name Jesus doesn't even need to enter into the process. If God reaches down through divine intervention and saves this person, God has saved them. They have not been saved "through the Son," they have simply been saved.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Even though I have quoted the entirety of John 14 to show that your selective quotation of that passage is suspect, and not necessarily subject to the interpretation you give it....Let's say you're right about your interpretation...Well then you've just contradicted yourself.Whatever the -exact- structure of how it happens, you have already admitted that "God works in many ways." If he saves our hypothetical deaf, dumb and blind castaway on the deserted island, then however he does that is a mystery. It may or may not be "through the Son," but we have no way of knowing. He somehow saved that person that has no knowledge of Jesus. If he saved that person through a miracle, then the name Jesus doesn't even need to enter into the process. If God reaches down through divine intervention and saves this person, God has saved them. They have not been saved "through the Son," they have simply been saved.Monty

first off your quotation of John 14 was wrong. No where in the bible do you have any justification for a belief that a nonbeliever has any chance at heaven. In fact you find very much the opposite. Yes I said God works in many ways. And if you actually took the time to read the bible you would see this. But show me just one time where God gave righteousness to a nonbeliever. Just one time where He gave righteousness to somebody who didnt believe in Him? It all goes back to one common theme. Those who seek the Lord will not be forgotten. You seem to forget this point. God helps those who call on Him!!!! those who dont get to enjoy eternal seperation. Its a very easy conceptAgain please show any evidence for your beliefs. I would be willin to bet you cant

[FullMontyM1 0]

first off your quotation of John 14 was wrong.

My quotation of the Bible can not be "wrong." I transcribed, verbatim, the whole passage.

Those who seek the Lord will not be forgotten. You seem to forget this point. God helps those who call on Him!!!! those who dont get to enjoy eternal seperation. Its a very easy concept

No it is not an easy concept. The Bible says that God helps those who call on God. The Bible DOES NOT say that "God enforces eternal separation on those who do not call on him." You can not provide a single verse from the Bible that says this.Furthermore, any quote you attempt to offer to prove this assertion regarding eternal separation, will NOT support such a concept, and WHEN you do offer such a quote, YOU will be trying to add to the Bible.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

My quotation of the Bible can not be "wrong." I transcribed, verbatim, the whole passage.No it is not an easy concept. The Bible says that God helps those who call on God. The Bible DOES NOT say that "God enforces eternal separation on those who do not call on him." You can not provide a single verse from the Bible that says this.Furthermore, any quote you attempt to offer to prove this assertion regarding eternal separation, will NOT support such a concept, and WHEN you do offer such a quote, YOU will be trying to add to the Bible.Monty

I didnt see any verses that support a single shred of evidence for you. Ill wait for you to provide anything. (we both know you wont)

[FullMontyM1 0]

I didnt see any verses that support a single shred of evidence for you. Ill wait for you to provide anything. (we both know you wont)

Matt, your responses are descending to the level of "I know you are but what am I?"Until you actually participate in this discussion, it is over.I have provided literally thousands of words of support for my point of view, including 1) verses from the Bible; 2) logical construction; 3) hypotheticals; 4) analytical reasoning.I hate to bring poker into this, but the kiddie game is down the street.Monty

[copernicus 0]

Matt, your responses are descending to the level of "I know you are but what am I?"Until you actually participate in this discussion, it is over.I have provided literally thousands of words of support for my point of view, including 1) verses from the Bible; 2) logical construction; 3) hypotheticals; 4) analytical reasoning.I hate to bring poker into this, but the kiddie game is down the street.Monty

Noooooo...I want him in my game...for cash, not Pokemon cards of course.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt, your responses are descending to the level of "I know you are but what am I?"Until you actually participate in this discussion, it is over.I have provided literally thousands of words of support for my point of view, including 1) verses from the Bible; 2) logical construction; 3) hypotheticals; 4) analytical reasoning.I hate to bring poker into this, but the kiddie game is down the street.Monty

Really? WHere is the evidence? Your hypothetical? that showed nothing except you can make a hypothetical. You should nothing to justify why that person should go to heaven. The bible verses? What verse says that somebody who didnt know about Gow ill get into heave? Logic? If the bible says the only way to the Father is through the Son what is the logical construction necessary? Reasoning? You are tryin to bend God's rules to allow people inNone of this "evidence" would hold up anywhere. You would be laughed at if you presented this evidence to anybody. Please show actual evidence, actual proof...actually just show something to justify your beliefs.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Really? WHere is the evidence? Your hypothetical? that showed nothing except you can make a hypothetical. You should nothing to justify why that person should go to heaven. The bible verses? What verse says that somebody who didnt know about Gow ill get into heave? Logic? If the bible says the only way to the Father is through the Son what is the logical construction necessary? Reasoning? You are tryin to bend God's rules to allow people inNone of this "evidence" would hold up anywhere. You would be laughed at if you presented this evidence to anybody. Please show actual evidence, actual proof...actually just show something to justify your beliefs.

Matt, just because you say something, does not make it true.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt, just because you say something, does not make it true.Monty

I still see no evidence. I still do not see you pointing toa nything you have said that is true evidence. I wonder why that is? Possibly because you have said nothing that is actual evidence.

[FullMontyM1 0]

I still see no evidence. I still do not see you pointing toa nything you have said that is true evidence. I wonder why that is? Possibly because you have said nothing that is actual evidence.

Matt, I have provided evidence supporting my argument, more evidence than you have provided. You can dispute the value of the evidence, but you cannot dispute the existence of the evidence. Disputing the existence of the evidence at this point is making you look very silly.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt, I have provided evidence supporting my argument, more evidence than you have provided. You can dispute the value of the evidence, but you cannot dispute the existence of the evidence. Disputing the existence of the evidence at this point is making you look very silly.Monty

so we should agree with you b/c you say so? Did I dispute the existence of your evidence? No did i question the evidence itself? yes and so far you have not or cannot clarify it. You "evidence" actually does nothing to support your point of view. And now you will be running away so that you dont have to actually own up to what you say.

[FullMontyM1 0]

so we should agree with you b/c you say so? Did I dispute the existence of your evidence? No did i question the evidence itself? yes and so far you have not or cannot clarify it. You "evidence" actually does nothing to support your point of view. And now you will be running away so that you dont have to actually own up to what you say.

I never said anyone had to agree with me. I stated my POV and offered evidence in support of my POV. You are the one stating that everyone has to agree with you, Matt. When you do something, and then accuse your opponent of doing what you are doing, you are engaging in a strategy that might be called the Big Lie, something Hitler made well-known.I'm not running away. I'll be here. But all you are doing is trying to claim that I am running away so that you can claim some faux-victory in the discussion. The bottom-line is that this discussion ceased to be a discussion when you opted for easy-outs. I am resting my case, because I have provided sufficient evidence to support my POV on this subject. Now everyone can decide for themselves.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I never said anyone had to agree with me. I stated my POV and offered evidence in support of my POV. You are the one stating that everyone has to agree with you, Matt. When you do something, and then accuse your opponent of doing what you are doing, you are engaging in a strategy that might be called the Big Lie, something Hitler made well-known.I'm not running away. I'll be here. But all you are doing is trying to claim that I am running away so that you can claim some faux-victory in the discussion. The bottom-line is that this discussion ceased to be a discussion when you opted for easy-outs. I am resting my case, because I have provided sufficient evidence to support my POV on this subject. Now everyone can decide for themselves.Monty

so now I am using the actions of Hitler? further your evidence actually doesnt even support your view. hypothetical - This set up the example of somebody stranded on an island. You then said that b/c of his bad situation he should be shown mercy by God. You never gave any direct reason as to why only "God works in many ways". This isnt proof of anything. As I pointed out, If the boy seeks the Lord he will not be disappointed. If he doesnt then he will stand before God a sinner. Where was your evidence for you? Is your real answer that "God works in many ways"? logic - Romans 10:9-10 is built on one belief. The belief that Jesus is Lord and God. You broke it up into 3 beliefs tryin to show there are multiple ways. Last time I looked you could not break a singular object into multiple things. There is one belief. You never gave any evidence as to why you broke one belief into 3 beliefs. Other stuff - You said that there "may be another way" But you offered no proof of that either. You cant point to the bible b/c the bible says there is only one way to heaven. The bible offers no exceptions no loopholes yet you claim there should be another way. God is a Just God. He cannot allow sin into heaven. Does it pain Him to have to send people to hell? I bet it does but He gave His Laws thousands of years ago and if people dont want to listen then whose fault is that. So again. Where is your evidence?

[FullMontyM1 0]

so now I am using the actions of Hitler?

Yes, rank hyperbole with complete disregard for the facts that are in plain view is a strategy used by Hitler.When you say I have provided no evidence, you are engaging in what is called the big lie. Lying about something that is obviously true, and doing so in such a way that those who are not careful examiners may, in fact, that what you say to be true.

hypothetical - This set up the example of somebody stranded on an island. You then said that b/c of his bad situation he should be shown mercy by God. You never gave any direct reason as to why only "God works in many ways". This isnt proof of anything. As I pointed out, If the boy seeks the Lord he will not be disappointed. If he doesnt then he will stand before God a sinner. Where was your evidence for you? Is your real answer that "God works in many ways"?

You are the one who used the phrase "God works in many ways" in response to my hypothetical. I agreed that that was a satsifactoty explanation as to why the person would not go to Hell, as we cannot possibly know with any certainty what myriad ways are included in the set of ways defined by the phrase "God works in many ways."

logic - Romans 10:9-10 is built on one belief. The belief that Jesus is Lord and God. You broke it up into 3 beliefs tryin to show there are multiple ways. Last time I looked you could not break a singular object into multiple things. There is one belief. You never gave any evidence as to why you broke one belief into 3 beliefs.

You did not understand the logical exercise that you are referring to. The breaking up of the verses into pieces had NOTHING to do with showing that 1 belief is 3 beliefs. The breaking up of the verses into pieces was a simple, shorthand for ease of writting out the conditionals and had NOTHING to do with the argument. I provided you with an alternate wording of the conditionals to illustrate your mistake, you persist in hammering on an irrelevant issue. This is another reason why the discussion is over.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

You are the one who used the phrase "God works in many ways" in response to my hypothetical. I agreed that that was a satsifactoty explanation as to why the person would not go to Hell, as we cannot possibly know with any certainty what myriad ways are included in the set of ways defined by the phrase "God works in many ways."

Jump to conclusions much or did you just feel that you could disregard the rest of what I said? I said IF you seek the Lord He will come to you in some way. Thats is the complete opposite of what you want it to say. You NEED it to say that even if you dont seek the Lord that He will help you. You are trying to twist my words to fit that but they dont. When I said God works in many ways I was referring to Him appearing to us. Which the bible does support. What the bible does not support is Him allowing a nonbeliever into heaven. IN fact it supports the exact opposite. If you seek the Lord he will not let you downIf you do not seek the Lord you will be judgedJohn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged alread, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."You see. your conclusion you draw does not fit the Bible. You continue to avoid this. How can you be a christian yet believe something that goes against the bible?

You did not understand the logical exercise that you are referring to. The breaking up of the verses into pieces had NOTHING to do with showing that 1 belief is 3 beliefs. The breaking up of the verses into pieces was a simple, shorthand for ease of writting out the conditionals and had NOTHING to do with the argument. I provided you with an alternate wording of the conditionals to illustrate your mistake, you persist in hammering on an irrelevant issue. This is another reason why the discussion is over.

I didnt understand the logical exercise you did? You broke belief into 3 things:

These two verses give us:IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]

Do you remember this? These are your words. It looks pretty but is not biblical in anyway. Why? First lets hit "confess and believe" - This alone doesnt do anything. I can confess and believe many things but that will not make me righteous So this first statement is falseSecond "believes with the heart" - this again is false. I can believe lots of things with my heart but that doesnt make me righteous. Third "Believe in Jesus" - This is the only one that is valid biblically. If you believe in Jesus then you will be saved. The other 2 sentences you showed do not make you righteous. So you of the three we are still left with only ONE thats you righteous. The other two do not. B/c you never defined what belief is the first 2 become false. The problem is that when you define belief you are left with only one option. So while your logical statements were written correctly they are not correct. Only the third one is correct biblically.

[FullMontyM1 0]

I didnt understand the logical exercise you did? You broke belief into 3 things:Do you remember this? These are your words. It looks pretty but is not biblical in anyway. Why? First lets hit "confess and believe" - This alone doesnt do anything. I can confess and believe many things but that will not make me righteous So this first statement is falseSecond "believes with the heart" - this again is false. I can believe lots of things with my heart but that doesnt make me righteous. Third "Believe in Jesus" - This is the only one that is valid biblically. If you believe in Jesus then you will be saved. The other 2 sentences you showed do not make you righteous. So you of the three we are still left with only ONE thats you righteous. The other two do not. B/c you never defined what belief is the first 2 become false. The problem is that when you define belief you are left with only one option. So while your logical statements were written correctly they are not correct. Only the third one is correct biblically.

Again, this is why the discussion is over Matt. If you don't understand what the word "shorthand" means, and if you can't recognize that the arguments you are making are COMPLETELY irrelevant to the discussion, then we can't continue to discuss things.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Again, this is why the discussion is over Matt. If you don't understand what the word "shorthand" means, and if you can't recognize that the arguments you are making are COMPLETELY irrelevant to the discussion, then we can't continue to discuss things.Monty

again this dodging the question on your part. You initiall gave this

These two verses give us:IF[Confess and Believe] -----> THEN [Righteous]IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteous]IF[believe in Jesus] ----> THEN[Rigtheous]

then you clarified it up with this:

IF[Cat] ----> THEN [ANIMAL]IF[Dog]-----> THEN [ANIMAL]IF[Horse] ----> THEN[ANIMAL]

Since a cat dog and horse are not the same thing. It appears you were tryin to make the statement that the three things in the bible were 3 different things which I have shown not to be the case. So either you are backpedaling or just not wanting to see the obvious. Those are the examples you have given. One has you redefining belief 3 times. The other takes 3 different things and says that they are all part of a bigger group. All i have to work with is what you give and this is what youve given. The two logical statement while correct structurally are not using correct information

[FullMontyM1 0]

again this dodging the question on your part. You initiall gave thisthen you clarified it up with this: Since a cat dog and horse are not the same thing. It appears you were tryin to make the statement that the three things in the bible were 3 different things which I have shown not to be the case. So either you are backpedaling or just not wanting to see the obvious. Those are the examples you have given. One has you redefining belief 3 times. The other takes 3 different things and says that they are all part of a bigger group. All i have to work with is what you give and this is what youve given. The two logical statement while correct structurally are not using correct information

I'll type it out again for you and illustrate why you are misunderstanding something. At this point, I am so confused by your muddled responses, that I am not even sure exactly -what- you don't understand. This isn't a knock against you, it is just making it very hard for me to clear up your misunderstanding, since I am honestly completely confused by your responses, because they -do not make any sense at all-.Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; IF[Confeess & Believe] ---- > THEN[You will be saved]This is the original conditional I gave you. I -think-, but I am not sure, that you are confused by the shorthand of "Confess & Believe." I have -already- explained that "Confess and Believe" is shorthand for "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead." It is JUST EASIER to write "Confess and Believe" over and over again.Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteoues]You cut off the first part of this verse in your quote, but I don't need it anyways. Either the logic is escaping you, or you refuse to admit the possibility that you are wrong, so you ignore the logic, or you are just completely confused, or there is something else going on in your mind that I cannot fathom at all.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I'll type it out again for you and illustrate why you are misunderstanding something. At this point, I am so confused by your muddled responses, that I am not even sure exactly -what- you don't understand. This isn't a knock against you, it is just making it very hard for me to clear up your misunderstanding, since I am honestly completely confused by your responses, because they -do not make any sense at all-.Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; IF[Confeess & Believe] ---- > THEN[You will be saved]This is the original conditional I gave you. I -think-, but I am not sure, that you are confused by the shorthand of "Confess & Believe." I have -already- explained that "Confess and Believe" is shorthand for "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead." It is JUST EASIER to write "Confess and Believe" over and over again.Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. IF[believes with the heart] -----> THEN[Righteoues]You cut off the first part of this verse in your quote, but I don't need it anyways. Either the logic is escaping you, or you refuse to admit the possibility that you are wrong, so you ignore the logic, or you are just completely confused, or there is something else going on in your mind that I cannot fathom at all.Monty

So are you changing your story now? What are you defining belief to be...b/c it appears you are not defining it... We know there is only way way to righteousness and that is through belief. So there isnt any compromising on that. Your statement would be valid if you were defining belief. Then you could show what makes up belief. Then you could sayIf[belief] ---> then[righteousness]but your method does not work b/c it is only through belief that you are deemed righteous. You broke up belief to show it and if that was your intent then fine. But the point still is that it is through belief that we are deemed righteous. Nothing else.

[FullMontyM1 0]

This is approaching farce, but since patience is a virtue...

So are you changing your story now?

No.

What are you defining belief to be...b/c it appears you are not defining it...

I am using the definition of belief that the Bible provides.

We know there is only way way to righteousness and that is through belief.

We do not know this. The Bible says IF you believe you will be righteous. The Bible DOES NOT say ONLY IF you believe will you be righteous.

Your statement would be valid if you were defining belief.

I am using the definition of belief that the Bible provides. See above.

b/c it is only through belief that you are deemed righteous. You broke up belief to show it and if that was your intent then fine. But the point still is that it is through belief that we are deemed righteous. Nothing else.

See above.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

This is approaching farce, but since patience is a virtue...No. I am using the definition of belief that the Bible provides. We do not know this. The Bible says IF you believe you will be righteous. The Bible DOES NOT say ONLY IF you believe will you be righteous. I am using the definition of belief that the Bible provides. See above.See above.Monty

The bolded is wrongJohn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"Therefore we see that if you do not believe you are judged...You might want to reread all of John 3. You seem to exclude this from your bible. All who have not believe are judged as being from evil. Evil does not get into heaven.