Look Who's Talking

[chester97 0]

Okay, I'll try to put this in a way you'll understand.To the layman:Poker = Gambling, Gambling = bad, bad = Negative outlookWe know this isn't entirely true, but to the people you are trying to sway, this is all they will ever believe.

i'm sorry, did you think i didn't understand you're precise point ofpoker=bad?

[PokerMirate 0]

You can't judge and say one player has a better chance to win than another, it might be true, but not something you can calculate. The odds of a player winning a 100 man tourney is 1/100, the odds of one of 4 players winning is 4/100. That's it, that's all. No, "but he's better than most so it improves his odds", his odds are the same as everybody elses.

If poker was pure luck this would be correct, but there is also skill involved which, yet again, mean you are wrong. If you enter a tournament and Hellmuth enter a tourney, each of you does not have the same chance of winning. He is a more skilled player than you and therefore has a better shot. Yes, you each have the same odds of recieving AA, KK, etc., but he is better at poker than you, which means he will probably extract more money from his winning hands and lose less on his losing hands. This does not guarantee he will finish better than you, but it means he has a better shot to. Face it, he had an advantage. To continue to argue an opposite opinion would be idiocy.

[nrs02004 0]

I really don't see how this is so completely horrible myself... If instead there were 4 seperate tournaments being played at the same time, for that amount of money I'm sure he would have bought in to each once.Clearly party poker should punish him for breaking the rules for the tournament, and I don't have much of a problem with them taking the money (Though if I were in his position I would fight against them too), but everyone here is acting like he marked cards or something. If he had been playing in 4 seperate large tournaments with the same prize pool, and had won one of them it would have been just another day of poker; and his equity doing that would have been the same as his equity playing in one large tournament on 4 accounts (or at least soooo close that it wouldn't matter).Have you ever run a red light, that you thought you could make, really late at night with no one on the streets? Does that make you a horrible person? If nobody saw, are you sorry?What if someone randomly ran out into the street from a bush and you hit them? Would you be sorry about it afterwards?

[Kuge 0]

I also think that he should be fortunate this type of thing happened online. If this happened in any casino, he would've had all his money confiscated, and probably gotten an ass_whuppin to go along with it.

Ehehe, if it happened anywhere I think the US government would be the 1st ones to get to Zee, after all...there wouldn be about 3-4 clones...and would only one Zee get the whuppin? Or all 3-4 clones?Anyways, Stuff happens...you'll rebound Zee. I dont see any reason to keep bashing you, you lost over 100K, got exposed as a cheat...yet people still wanna feel big by kicking a guy when he's already down. For the record, you're comment on saying that "when does cheating cross the line (or something similar)" for tourneys makes most of your apology seem meaningless. Cheating is Cheating is Cheating, everyone who does cheat (whether it be poker, or on a final exam) has the intention to not get caught and they won't feel sorry unless they actually feel guilty and turn themselves in. And until they do get caught, they won't feel sorry. I know tons of people who cheat on exams for college, they don't feel sorry unless they get caught. To be honest, I don't really know where I'm going with this...sorry for wasting 1 minute of you guys time...well, not really.

[pocket3s 0]

It is very nice that you couch your outrageous claim with a statement demanding others to not respond to it so you can't be proven wrong, which there is no doubt you are. Also, your argument is pretty pathetic as it does not matter how many other people would or wouldn't do it, as either way it is wrong, the amount of people participating in the action does not change whether it is against the rules. What ir does bring up is an nice insight into peoples true morals and ethics. the idea of whether someone would commit the perfect murder.The man broke the TOS, what they did was within their rights, case closed. However your statement brings up another interesting point, did ZeeJustin think he would not be caught and therefore began to behave in such a manner or did he truly not think he was cheating/breaking the rules? He seems to claim the latter, but unless he has been extremely sheltered or has the mental maturity of a three year old I find it very hard to believe what he claims.

There is a poll on the site right now where you can respond, I don't think we need to hear how great you all are and how you would never do "such a thing". Am I so naive that I believe he wasn't doing wrong? No, the ideals of right and wrong are so pounded into us that this cannot be the case.

[The Czar 0]

Seriously, relax everyone. He got caught, lossed $100K and apologized. This shouldn't taint any of his numerous accomplishments. I mean, really, how much did this help him win all those tourneys? I'd venture to say not much. I think a lot of these responses are based on jealousy. He fu@ked up. We've all done it. The fact is, he's still a better poker player than 99.9% of us on this site. Why take away his livelyhood? What does that accomplish?

[Jeepster80125 0]

Yes, thank you. The last month has been extremely hard for me and I feel that I've grown as a person. I've invested a lot of time into poker and I feel I became very good. I need to play poker and that is why I finally decided to come forward on my website and offer an apology.

You cheated, got caught, and lost your mobney. Like I said, this was an expensive lesson to learn. Don't do it anymore. I strongly doubt you would stop this behavior if they didn't take all of your money.

[pocket3s 0]

If poker was pure luck this would be correct, but there is also skill involved which, yet again, mean you are wrong. If you enter a tournament and Hellmuth enter a tourney, each of you does not have the same chance of winning. He is a more skilled player than you and therefore has a better shot. Yes, you each have the same odds of recieving AA, KK, etc., but he is better at poker than you, which means he will probably extract more money from his winning hands and lose less on his losing hands. This does not guarantee he will finish better than you, but it means he has a better shot to. Face it, he had an advantage. To continue to argue an opposite opinion would be idiocy.

So you're saying that if he was a bad player, it would be alright? If he was going to donk off all the chips in all the accounts in the first fifteen minutes, then you wouldn't have a problem?

[WhiteSpade 0]

Yes, thank you. The last month has been extremely hard for me and I feel that I've grown as a person. I've invested a lot of time into poker and I feel I became very good. I need to play poker and that is why I finally decided to come forward on my website and offer an apology.

Mr. Justin, I'm sorry I'm a little off topic - but could you post your birth certificate. It's been posted numerous times before and I still find it hard to believe your parents named you Zee.I'm just messing.. but seriously, can we see it?Back on topic, it was nice to see the apology on your site. You know you messed up and you will have to deal with that for a long time to come. I wish you the best in making an honest comeback.

[chester97 0]

Seriously, relax everyone. He got caught, lossed $100K and apologized. This shouldn't taint any of his numerous accomplishments. I mean, really, how much did this help him win all those tourneys? I'd venture to say not much. I think a lot of these responses are based on jealousy. He fu@ked up. We've all done it. The fact is, he's still a better poker player than 99.9% of us on this site. Why take away his livelyhood? What does that accomplish?

you just said it. he's better then 99.9% of us. if he enters 1 tournament 4 times, and i enter the same tournament 1 time, then what chance do i stand in the long run in comparison. i don't understand how people don't see this as an advantage.geez jackson look what you started. troublemaker.

[PokerMirate 0]

So you're saying that if he was a bad player, it would be alright? If he was going to donk off all the chips in all the accounts in the first fifteen minutes, then you wouldn't have a problem?

How did I say anything that resembles a claim like that? You said that everyone in a tourney had the exact same odds to win as everyone else. Joe Blow is 1/100, Ivey is 1/100, etc. Never once did I even touch on that topic, you may need to work on your reading comprehension skills.But as long as you bring it up, no it would not be alright. Because, again, it gives him an advantage over other player. If you do not see it, im afraid you never will.

[pocket3s 0]

you just said it. he's better then 99.9% of us. if he enters 1 tournament 4 times, and i enter the same tournament 1 time, then what chance do i stand in the long run in comparison. i don't understand how people don't see this as an advantage.

I'm not arguing that it's not an advantage, I just don't think it's a very big one. You wanna test this, find the best four poker players you know and enter them into a few large tournies. See how often they make the final table as a group and individually. They will ft as a group more often, I bet the percentage difference won't be that great.

[chester97 0]

I'm not arguing that it's not an advantage, I just don't think it's a very big one. You wanna test this, find the best four poker players you know and enter them into a few large tournies. See how often they make the final table as a group and individually. They will ft as a group more often, I bet the percentage difference won't be that great.

see, you're looking at it on a small scale. if he entered the PP 750k with 4 accounts, thats what, 2400 bucks (600 buy in i think)? he came in second for 140k. 3 of those accounts shouldn't have been in the tournament. sure, maybe he won with the 1 account that he would've originally played, but thats just a 1/4 chance. poker is all about small edges in the long run. for large tournaments with huge prize pools, this is a definite advantage.

[The Czar 0]

I'm not arguing that it's not an advantage, I just don't think it's a very big one. You wanna test this, find the best four poker players you know and enter them into a few large tournies. See how often they make the final table as a group and individually. They will ft as a group more often, I bet the percentage difference won't be that great.

I agree entirely. It's definitely an advantage, but not to the degree of taking away a 16 year olds way of life. All I'm saying is it's not THAT bad. He's being treated as if he commited the ultimate poker sin. Look, he was immoral and got caught. Let him move on.And no, I don't know him, I just am forgiving. Especially when it's a young kid.

[chester97 0]

I agree entirely. It's definitely an advantage, but not to the degree of taking away a 16 year olds way of life. All I'm saying is it's not THAT bad. He's being treated as if he commited the ultimate poker sin. Look, he was immoral and got caught. Let him move on.And no, I don't know him, I just am forgiving. Especially when it's a young kid.

online poker is in it's infancy, so i don't know if the "ultimate poker sins" have been made for it yet. but i would think this is just behind straight-up collusion.

[kers2 0]

is ZeeJustin your real name or your screen name?

BallerI guess we'll never have to worry about what ZeeJustin's screen name is anymore

[Jordan 1]

I agree entirely. It's definitely an advantage, but not to the degree of taking away a 16 year olds way of life. All I'm saying is it's not THAT bad. He's being treated as if he commited the ultimate poker sin. Look, he was immoral and got caught. Let him move on.And no, I don't know him, I just am forgiving. Especially when it's a young kid.

Cheating is the ultimate poker sin. What other rule in poker can be broke?If you cheat in poker you cheat the game. If you really respect the game, you wouldn't cheat. If you really respected your peers, you wouldn't cheat.Maybe ZJ didn't cheat YOU directly, but he did indirectly. He didn't respect his common man. And for that, he should be held responsible.A simple apology isn't going to make things right. He said that himself. He knows it, and everyone else does.Forgive him all you want. That's your choice. However, he cheated a game many of "us" respect and wouldn't do. So, it is THAT bad. And he is paying the price.- Jordan

[The Czar 0]

Cheating is the ultimate poker sin. What other rule in poker can be broke?If you cheat in poker you cheat the game. If you really respect the game, you wouldn't cheat. If you really respected your peers, you wouldn't cheat.Maybe ZJ didn't cheat YOU directly, but he did indirectly. He didn't respect his common man. And for that, he should be held responsible.A simple apology isn't going to make things right. He said that himself. He knows it, and everyone else does.Forgive him all you want. That's your choice. However, he cheated a game many of "us" respect and wouldn't do. So, it is THAT bad. And he is paying the price.- Jordan

I hope none of you make judgeship. Our prisons are crowded enough. You guys all make good points. I realize he was wrong. My only argument is against a lifetime ban. He wasn't openly chip dumping or colluding his way to these wins. That should be kept in mind. Oh well, I don't know why I'm so concerned anyways.

[Jordan 1]

I hope none of you make judgeship. Our prisons are crowded enough. You guys all make good points. I realize he was wrong. My only argument is against a lifetime ban. He wasn't openly chip dumping or colluding his way to these wins. That should be kept in mind. Oh well, I don't know why I'm so concerned anyways.

Wow, lets not get political on this.however, heard of "repeat offenders"? Yea. And prisons dont rehabilitate. but we aren't sending ZJ to prison. He's getting a smack on the wrist. However, all this could be looked at a pyschological viewpoint..i'm not going to try to, or really try to think of it anymore..but you could...just like you can with a whole lot of things...as to why ppl do what they do..point is..something in the kids brain lead him to cheating...to be a cheat...just read his blog..you can see his personal struggle...- Jordan

[Abbaddabba 0]

I dont know how you can "not know" something is unethical, but then have it explained to you.He knew the ramifications of what he was doing. You cant "learn" a sense of ethics; it's a set of internal values. You can teach someone how to act within a specific set of ethics. Or teach them what other people think is ethical. But you can't tell someone what they should think is ethical. I dont really hold it against him either way, but i also think he's more sorry that he was caught than anything. I dont happen to think it's particularly "unethical" in large MTT's, nor do i care if other people do. It wouldnt bother me any more that there are 4 ZeeJustins than if there were 4 other highly skilled players in his place. I'd prefer that the good to bad player ratio be dilluted, but i wouldnt put it anywhere near blatant collusion or deck rigging on a scale of 'poker sins'. Since i dont ever plan on doing it, ill be glad if the poker sites take measures to **** over all of pro multi-account users. Hell, they can **** over all the pro's period and i'd be delighted. It'd make for much easier tables.He's being used as an example right now. Oh well. Party is fully within their rights to and im hardly shedding a tear. Besides, im sure he'll find plenty of people willing to start an account for him in their name.What's really weak sauce how he did it so transparently. From the same IP and computer? Wow. You suck at the internet.

[ricker 0]

I'm not arguing that it's not an advantage, I just don't think it's a very big one. You wanna test this, find the best four poker players you know and enter them into a few large tournies. See how often they make the final table as a group and individually. They will ft as a group more often, I bet the percentage difference won't be that great.

I think you're missing the point. Put you and me in a tourney with 1100 other people, and more than likely a larger percentage of people would be professional poker players who make the money, that's a no brainer and obvious to anyone who's played poker for any amount of time that a skilled player will more likely outlast an amatuer. Give that skilled player four different chances...and his likelyness of winning or placing higher in the money than you or me.

[PokerMirate 0]

The more I think about it the more I believe that ZJ will attempt another apology in another couple months as this attempt doesn't seem to be holding much water.He does not owe anybody on here or anywhere else an apology, etc., but to pretend to apologize is just kinda sad. Someone who is truly apologetic is usually open to answering questions about the matter so people will get over it and it can be put behind him. He has shown none of this from his responses on here (if its not a gimmick account) and 2+2. He has taken the attitude of, "I apologized, now leave me alone." This is not an attitude of true attonement, but one of someone who is doing something because they feel they need to, not because they know they should. Add this with the BS feeling a lot of his "apology" has and it equals someone grasping for excuses.

[crocd99 0]

I'm not arguing that it's not an advantage, I just don't think it's a very big one. You wanna test this, find the best four poker players you know and enter them into a few large tournies. See how often they make the final table as a group and individually. They will ft as a group more often, I bet the percentage difference won't be that great.

TP/MM

[poguemahone68 0]

Cheating is the ultimate poker sin. What other rule in poker can be broke?

The F-Bomb is the penultimate poker sin

[dapokerbum 0]

Who Cares. he had to give up 100K...good for him. No more online poker...good for him. Learn to play B&M. start playing live and forget about online. Everyone knows online poker is rigged anyway!But seriously why don't you just start playing live. Move to vegas and go for it. It seems you have the talent. and it is way harder to CHEAT live cause then you might get beat down in the parking lot after.