jimmybaker04 0 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 My first short handed post.My friend is the hero in this hand. We have been discussing this hand that occurred on FTP. 5 handed .50/1.00 SB $80.50 Hero (BB) $92.20 (Kh, Jd) UTG $93.00 CO $58.50 Villain (Button) $148.70 Pre-flop: UTG calls, CO folds, Villain raises $1.50 to $2.50, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls. Flop (pot=$8 )[Qc 8c Jc] Hero bets $5, UTG fold, Villain calls. Turn (pot=$18 )[Kd] Hero bets $11, Villain calls. River (pot=$40 )[6h] Hero checks, Villain bets $130.20 and is all-in, Hero.....? What do you guys think? His read of the villain is a player who loves to make a tiny raises pre-flop with hand that most players would limp with or fold. Fairly loose. He has picked up quite a few of small pots, though he did not show down any hands. He did call a $14 all-in pre-flop with AJs and busted a player with 99. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 How come you didnt bet on the river? This may have helped your decision a little. If you bet the river and get raised a fold seems like a safe play. To me it looks like you showed weakness there so he went all in to muscle you off your hand. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 by the way.....this strategy of all in after a check on the river seems pretty common at this level. In my experience its 50/50 that its either an all out bluff or he has a big hand. I hate this position. You are either gonna look like a donk or make a good buck if you call.im not really much help......sorry Link to post Share on other sites
oceansize 0 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 yeah, what beats you? AT, 9T, trips, or two clubs....Checking on the river really put you in this position. Because he doesn't need a hand here to take this pot from you. If he made you on a Hi club draw, that would have given you outs for a str8 or flush which (if he put you on that) you didn't make and checking the river makes it look even more like that. He could have been calling this all the way down waiting to pop it with a flopped flush, but if that were the case I would think he would want to make a play that you would call, he would have raised earlier (at least the turn) and taken control of the action. Personally, I don't think he has it. As in, I don't think he has you beat. But I do not believe you can call this. $40 in the pot and your gonna risk $130 and change to see if two pair is gonna beat this ugly board? This is really a hand I want to call, but I can't. I like money too much.(edit)before I get to much of lean towards fold going, (because I still really don't want to) ask for time, and ask yourself this: if you call and lose this, is there enough bankroll in your account to get back in this game, and if so, do you think you can take your money back?The problem I have with this villian is that he isn't showing down any cards. You can't get that good of a read on a guy that is allowed to run rampant and take pots at a moment of weakness. If you fold, you should leave this table and find another game. The only reason you should have checked the river is if your intention was to check raise.I change my answer back to call and prepare for the worst. Mostly because I think I can answer the above questions I posed correctly and I really do not believe this guy has it. Fold here and this guy has a key to your register.That's what I think. Link to post Share on other sites
jimmybaker04 0 Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 My friend checked here because he put him on a flush draw, with maybe a pair to go with it. He figured he missed, so the only way to get money in the pot was to allow him to hang himself.Remember, we only have a little over $70 left so his all-in for $130ish is academic. We were basically having to call about twice the pot.I honestly believe he could hold two clubs, A 10x, or a hand we beat. Trips would have taken control of the hand and so would any straight without the A . Link to post Share on other sites
juggo 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 well if your friend checked to get the guy to put money in the pot...that worked !! did he finally make the call? how did the hand play out in the end? i am really interested.ps. i am the "guest" above. forgot to sign in when i posted them. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 If your friend checked to let him hang himself on the river, then he has to call. You can't go with a gameplan and then abandon it when the villain does exactly what you wanted him to do. I still don't think I like the check/call line on this particular board, but that's something to consider for next time we're in this situation. Link to post Share on other sites
ForKeeps 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 First, why did he bet into the villain after he raised, holding only MP/TPK? Whatever the reason, you got a call and found 2 pair on the turn. A10 doesn't call unless he's suited with the flop, AJ doesn't call the turn bet. I THINK he has one of the 3 things:1) Busted flush draw, in which case I agree with the poster that says you have to call if you were expecting it2) 10-9. You said the villain likes to min-raise or the like with these kind of hands, and I think it's a real possibility here, and he probably wasn't too worried about you being on the flush draw since you bet into him.3) A-K. I can see AK calling the flop bet to see the turn. He saw your turn bet as a continuation and put you on AQ or Q10, and thought the 6 on the riv made him good, and if you DID have QJ or KQ you would have a tough decision. Let me know what you think Jimmy, I like how you play. Link to post Share on other sites
jimmybaker04 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Bad ending:My friend laid it down. To be honest, my buddy's BR is a bit shriveled so I understand, but I would be willing to venture that we have the best hand 65% of the time given this action and we were getting 1.5-1 on our money. Gotta call IMO.Nice input fellas. A couple last thoughts:If he had a hand like AK or AQ and thought it was good, wouldn't he at most value bet this river? Personally, if I held one pair on this board and the river checked to me, I wouldn't even bet.One of the main problems here is that we were in really uncharted territory with this villain. Villain had played lots of small pots, but never like this. In fact I don't even think he had seen a river card in a real pot in the 100 hands or so we had been at the table.Looking back on the hand, my advice to him was first, trust yourself and your reads. Second, if you are not prepared to call his all-in, we must lead out ($18ish). If he raises us all-in, then I think we can give him credit and dump. Too easy for him to bluff us when we have displayed such weakness. Agreed? Link to post Share on other sites
ForKeeps 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Bad ending:My friend laid it down. To be honest, my buddy's BR is a bit shriveled so I understand, but I would be willing to venture that we have the best hand 65% of the time given this action and we were getting 1.5-1 on our money. Gotta call IMO.Nice input fellas. A couple last thoughts:If he had a hand like AK or AQ and thought it was good, wouldn't he at most value bet this river? Personally, if I held one pair on this board and the river checked to me, I wouldn't even bet.One of the main problems here is that we were in really uncharted territory with this villain. Villain had played lots of small pots, but never like this. In fact I don't even think he had seen a river card in a real pot in the 100 hands or so we had been at the table.Looking back on the hand, my advice to him was first, trust yourself and your reads. Second, if you are not prepared to call his all-in, we must lead out ($18ish). If he raises us all-in, then I think we can give him credit and dump. Too easy for him to bluff us when we have displayed such weakness. Agreed?1) AGREED that value-betting is smarter and we would do this, but could we expect it from mini-me raiser here? I still say this guy is a tricky LAG and may have intended to push your friend off a better but marginal hand in case his AK was beat.2)AGREED that he should've called. I'm really only scared of the 10-9 here, and although that is very possible here, there are more options that we win against. Putting him on KK or QQ would be A) an impossible read given the player and B) mathematically improbable, but you know this man. Jimmy, what do you think of Coco Crisp? Link to post Share on other sites
macphec 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Fold this trash OOP pf and you have no decision to make Link to post Share on other sites
juggo 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 what is OOP?would another option be to reraise the villian preflop to determine how serious he is about the hand. if he plays back at you then you can get away from the hand without loosing bets post flop and on the turn.or is that just donking it up? Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I'll usually fold this PF as well unless it's suited.Re-raising PF is definitely donking it up. By the way, OOP stands for Out of position. Link to post Share on other sites
jimmybaker04 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Fold this trash OOP pf and you have no decision to makeLet's not be rediculous. KJ five handed is not trash, and we are playing against a loose player that may have very well raised with a worse hand. Link to post Share on other sites
jimmybaker04 0 Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Jimmy, what do you think of Coco Crisp?Sweet name. Link to post Share on other sites
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