kq off - what should i have done here?

[Lexomatic 0]

Ok, Im still new poker in general with only a couple of months of online play under my belt so far.Today I was going through my history and I noticed KQos is one of my big loss hands. I now see that I over valued this hand. I got cought up in all the paint, so to speak.The following hand was a big $ loss for me in particular:The Villian had only been on the table for a dozen hands or so and the only read on him I had was that he hadn't played LAG Maniac up to this point.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) MP3 ($29.15)CO ($20.45)Hero ($25)SB ($41.46)BB ($13.30)UTG ($25.80)UTG+1 ($46.80)UTG+2 ($42.90)MP1 (Villian) ($22.75)MP2 ($10.30)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q:club:, K:heart:. SB posts a blind of $0.10. UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 raises to $0.5calls $0.50.Flop: ($6.10) J:club:, 4:diamond:, 6:heart: (6 players)BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Villian checks, Hero bets $2, BB folds, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Villian calls $2.Turn: ($12.10) K:diamond: (3 players)UTG checks, Villian checks, Hero checks.River: ($12.10) 9:club: (3 players)UTG checks, Villian goes all in $19.75, Hero calls $19.75, UTG folds.Final Pot: $31.85Results in white below: Villian has Ah Ac (one pair, aces). Hero has Qc Kh (one pair, kings). Outcome: Villian wins $31.85. OK Villian's AA sort of cought me by surprise. Still though, how should I have played this hand? --Lex--

[Blink20 0]

For one, don't three bet KQ preflop, its not that strong of a hand. I usually don't call a raise with it either, but a mini raise, that's fine to call imo.Secondly, you did the classic weak play throughout this hand, by that I mean, you bet when you had nothing, then you checked when you hit your hand. Betting the flop in position is fine... but I generally don't continuation bet as much the lower levels because people are looking for any reason to call. However, you may have 6 outs and may pick up the free turn depending how opponents are playing that betting position here is justifiable.Now the turn, YOU HIT YOUR CARD! You gotta bet it, that's why you were in the hand. Another good reason to bet it strong is if you get a big check raise or too much action on it, then you can let it go. Also if you bet strong, usually the villian oop on the river will check and u can take free showdown which is usually a decent play with a KQ type hand but your value bet or check on the river is all read dependent here.AS far as calling all in, which im assuming the villian bet on the river, i think the converter messed up for ya, that's a tough spot. For best analysis, don't post the results next time, its not relevant to the play of the hand.GL at the tables

[Lexomatic 0]

I corrected the Villain's river all-in. Yeah, seriously not one of my best hand :roll:

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I corrected the Villain's river all-in. Yeah, seriously not one of my best hand :roll:

Eh..delete results.Trap hands = Will get you trapped.If you're going to raise, raise more than the minimum.I don't like raising here though, from an UTG/UTG+1 raise, we're likely behind, and a hand like KQ can very easily be "reverse dominated" by AK or AQ or KK or QQ, not to mention AA. I'd be more apt to re-raise with 98s here than I would KQ. If you're going to play it here, with all those people still to act, and the UTG+1 raiser, limp. You don't want to be spewing chips by getting re-raised from UTG+1 or by someone to act behind you.Honestly? I fold this preflop. I don't bet the fop. I check/fold the flop. Check/fold the river.I bet the turn, put on the brakes if smooth called, and fold to a push. TP2K's kinda ugly here.

[Lexomatic 0]

Yeah got trapped all right.Another thing about this session for me was that I was trying a 'raise, dont call, the pre-flop' approach. If I was going in pre-flop then I was going for a raise. Since this is a .1/.25 NL table, there was a lot of 'everyone calls the BB' going on at this time, so I was trying to beat it out of them by making them pay for their flop cards. Unfortunately I was on a long dry run of crap starting hands so the QK sort of set me on sudden loose call moment (actually a couple of prior A-low x hands started me).UTG+1 who raised here was another thing that annoyed me - his pot grew through some lucky table cards, beating a lot of good hands at the river. So I let it get personal and was raising him pre-flop to see if I could get to him. Ironically, he busted himself soon after on one of his loose river runs to a TAG.Thanks for the comments & feedback.

[ArseneLupin3 0]

6 players saw this flop. You flopped total air. Why are you trying to steal?On the river, you have next to 0 information. 20+ hands have you beat here. I would fold for a $2 bet.

[ArseneLupin3 0]

'Reverse dominated'?Doesn't 'dominated' work there? Where's this reverse coming from?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

'Reverse dominated'?Doesn't 'dominated' work there? Where's this reverse coming from?

"You may be right"OP, keep posting hands that you have issues with.

[krup24 0]

For one, don't three bet KQ preflop, its not that strong of a hand. I usually don't call a raise with it either, but a mini raise, that's fine to call imo.

It wasn't a three bet it was a min raise. This is NL. OP please don't min raise like this. What can you accomplish here you have for other players who are in for 0.50 and you have QK offsuit and you make it $1. Do you honestly expect these players to fold here?On the turn you have to bet here. You led the flop hit ur card on the turn and you checked. WTF? Now I know the other player had misplayed his rockets but I'm thinking of the long term here. Your going to lose a lot of money if you continue to play like this.I suggest picking up some poker literature to help you get a better grasp of betting.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

It wasn't a three bet it was a min raise.

Heh..just as a matter of reference, and I messed this up too, the Hero didn't min raise. UTG+1 min-raised .25 + .25, Hero raised .5= 1 dollar.Min raising would've been .25 to .75.

[krup24 0]

It wasn't a three bet it was a min raise.

Heh..just as a matter of reference, and I messed this up too, the Hero didn't min raise. UTG+1 min-raised .25 + .25, Hero raised .5= 1 dollar.Min raising would've been .25 to .75.

Actually it depends what site he was onBut he was on Party so no it wasn't a min raise but that is still an atrocious bet w/ KQ off.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

It wasn't a three bet it was a min raise.

Heh..just as a matter of reference, and I messed this up too, the Hero didn't min raise. UTG+1 min-raised .25 + .25, Hero raised .5= 1 dollar.Min raising would've been .25 to .75.

Actually it depends what site he was onBut he was on Party so no it wasn't a min raise but that is still an atrocious bet w/ KQ off.

Really? It shouldn't matter. That's just, rules, the way the game's played. Weird. What sites do it differently? And yeah, it was a bad bet.

[krup24 0]

It wasn't a three bet it was a min raise.

Heh..just as a matter of reference, and I messed this up too, the Hero didn't min raise. UTG+1 min-raised .25 + .25, Hero raised .5= 1 dollar.Min raising would've been .25 to .75.

Actually it depends what site he was onBut he was on Party so no it wasn't a min raise but that is still an atrocious bet w/ KQ off.

Really? It shouldn't matter. That's just, rules, the way the game's played. Weird. What sites do it differently? And yeah, it was a bad bet.

Not sure off the top of my head but I have played over a dozen sites and at least 2 or 3 are like that. He would have to raise the total raise.Like on FCP for example say you raise pf to 2 bucks another player can reraise to $3 where as on stars, party and ft this player would have to raise to at least 4 bucks.

[NoSup4U 0]

My thoughts, that have all already been covered:- KQo is one of everyone's biggest losing hands. If you're new, just resolve to almost never play it.- Considering the action up to this point, your raise is meaningless. Everyone before you that is already in the pot is going to call that raise. If you're going to raise, then raise. Standard procedure for a raise is at least 3X whatever the current bet is coming at you. And online, more is better.- That being said, this is a situation where a flat call might be warranted. You're looking at a 5 way pot probably, and maybe you want to gamble for broadway or 2 pair.- Don't continuation bet a flop that you didn't catch with 5 others in the pot- Bet when you do catch- In general, calling a gross overbet on the river with top pair is -EV, in my opinion. EVERYONE online now a days seems to have figured out this 'look like I'm stealing' trick.gl.Mark

[krup24 0]

My thoughts, that have all already been covered:- KQo is one of everyone's biggest losing hands. If you're new, just resolve to almost never play it.

Bad adviceKQo is a great hand depending on your table, position, and image.

[NoSup4U 0]

Like on FCP for example say you raise pf to 2 bucks another player can reraise to $3 where as on stars, party and ft this player would have to raise to at least 4 bucks.

Not sure of the specifics on all sites, but I agree. I play only on Party, and I read his raise as a min raise. Now that I think about it though, it seems odd as I know that you should be able to go to .75 here. I guess I just never thought about it, since it isn't something anyone should be doing :)As a Party player though, I am with Krup. I read it as a min raise. And even if the .75 option was there and he made it $1, its still not a real raise ;)Mark

[NoSup4U 0]

My thoughts, that have all already been covered:- KQo is one of everyone's biggest losing hands. If you're new, just resolve to almost never play it.

Bad adviceKQo is a great hand depending on your table, position, and image.

You find me a guy who's been playing for a month that is winning with KQo before you say that :)I wasn't saying its a bad hand. I said if you're new. (ie, you don't have a good feel for table, position, and image, which you agree are needed to successfully play this hand.Mark

[CobaltBlue 662]

Another thing about this session for me was that I was trying a 'raise, dont call, the pre-flop' approach.

Generally speaking, don't re-raise EP raisers with trap hands. I like that you're trying to be aggressive, but there are times when smooth-calling pre-flop is correct. For example, in most games, it's worth it to call a raise with a small pair to try to flop a set. You generally don't want to be re-raising those hands pre-flop.

[caribstv 0]

Ok, Im still new poker in general with only a couple of months of online play under my belt so far.Today I was going through my history and I noticed KQos is one of my big loss hands. I now see that I over valued this hand. I got cought up in all the paint, so to speak.The following hand was a big $ loss for me in particular:The Villian had only been on the table for a dozen hands or so and the only read on him I had was that he hadn't played LAG Maniac up to this point.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed)  MP3 ($29.15)CO ($20.45)Hero ($25)SB ($41.46)BB ($13.30)UTG ($25.80)UTG+1 ($46.80)UTG+2 ($42.90)MP1 (Villian) ($22.75)MP2 ($10.30)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q:club:, K:heart:.  SB posts a blind of $0.10.    UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 raises to $0.5calls $0.50.Flop: ($6.10) J:club:, 4:diamond:, 6:heart: (6 players)BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Villian checks, Hero bets $2, BB folds, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Villian calls $2.Turn: ($12.10) K:diamond: (3 players)UTG checks, Villian checks, Hero checks.River: ($12.10) 9:club: (3 players)UTG checks, Villian goes all in $19.75, Hero calls $19.75, UTG folds.Final Pot: $31.85Results in white below:  Villian has Ah Ac (one pair, aces).  Hero has Qc Kh (one pair, kings).  Outcome: Villian wins $31.85.  OK Villian's AA sort of cought me by surprise. Still though, how should I have played this hand?  --Lex--

someone slow playing aces....he got out lucky and sucked you in...most of the times he'll lose with AA , playing the way he didhe'll learn..I don;t think you did anything wrong....if he'd rasie preflop you prob would have gotten out alive on the flop and folded when the flop missed you..

[Hammered Burt 0]

OK Villian's AA sort of cought me by surprise. Still though, how should I have played this hand? --Lex--

You should have NOT bet on the flop with absolutely NO HAND. You've got a couple of overcards. Who knows if they are even live? Clear fold.

[RISEorFall 0]

You should have NOT bet on the flop with absolutely NO HAND. You've got a couple of overcards. Who knows if they are even live? Clear fold.

If you're open-folding the flop when everyone checks to you, stop giving advice.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

You should have NOT bet on the flop with absolutely NO HAND. You've got a couple of overcards. Who knows if they are even live? Clear fold.

If you're open-folding the flop when everyone checks to you, stop giving advice.

Kinda gotta agree here.I don't mind the flop bet--especially since against most hands it buys you a free turn card/cheap show down.