$1/2 -- making a move.

[portcityplayer 0]

How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?

-sigh-Obviously he's a moron for calling off $100 OOP with AQo. That doesn't make you somehow more righteous for your brilliant preflop isolation play of 2/3rds your stack.At the end of the day you're still out 100 bucks. Quit trying to accuse stupid players of playing stupid when they beat you. Learn from it, adapt, and break them. Call the all-in, flop an 8, and THEN make him call $100.And if you don't flop an 8, quietly check/fold.

Couldnt agree more TJ

I think raising to $40-50 would've been a better play and a follow up bet of $100 if the flop is low cards or if it's checked to me. Let's keep in mind this player is only playing his cards, not mine..

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?

-sigh-Obviously he's a moron for calling off $100 OOP with AQo. That doesn't make you somehow more righteous for your brilliant preflop isolation play of 2/3rds your stack.At the end of the day you're still out 100 bucks. Quit trying to accuse stupid players of playing stupid when they beat you. Learn from it, adapt, and break them. Call the all-in, flop an 8, and THEN make him call $100.And if you don't flop an 8, quietly check/fold.

Couldnt agree more TJ

I think raising to $40-50 would've been a better play and a follow up bet of $100 if the flop is low cards or if it's checked to me. Let's keep in mind this player is only playing his cards, not mine..

Yes but on a loose table, I dont see anyone folding for 40-50 more.Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I think raising to $40-50 would've been a better play and a follow up bet of $100 if the flop is low cards or if it's checked to me. Let's keep in mind this player is only playing his cards, not mine..

At the risk of sounding patronizing, which I'm really not trying to be, I think this is a great opportunity to delve into the intricacies of "waiting for the turn to raise."This was the hardest concept for me to understand in limit hold'em, because I couldn't understand how you're supposed to just call one bet on the flop with AA in a 5-way capped pot, and then raise the turn.Here's the thing: You are at best 60/40 ahead preflop. That's ONLY if homeboy is killing a card for you. You can push this edge hard now, to 50, 100, or 165, but that's a calculably large portion of your stack.If you just call, and you flop good (where "good" is defined as him having only 5 or 6 overcard outs), your equity changes from 60/40 to closer to 80/20. $100 x 60% equity = $60 adjusted valuebut...on the T-6-2 flop (reading him for overs) and THEN betting the $100, you have$100 x 80% equity = $80 adjusted value$80 value > $60 value, so calling and betting the FLOP hard would be better than betting preflop.Of course, there's a tradeoff to calling preflop, because if you flop bad, then you're on the wrong side of the equity. That's okay though, because 88 is vulnerable to overcards anyway!!!Please ask any question you want to pertaining to this subject, it's one of the more important things to understand. Don't push tiny edges hard in no limit. Wait for the big edges.For the record, I know and don't care that the math isn't exactly right. Just pretend it is, and you'll see the underlying principles, which is the most important part.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

I think raising to $40-50 would've been a better play and a follow up bet of $100 if the flop is low cards or if it's checked to me. Let's keep in mind this player is only playing his cards, not mine..

At the risk of sounding patronizing, which I'm really not trying to be, I think this is a great opportunity to delve into the intricacies of "waiting for the turn to raise."This was the hardest concept for me to understand in limit hold'em, because I couldn't understand how you're supposed to just call one bet on the flop with AA in a 5-way capped pot, and then raise the turn.Here's the thing: You are at best 60/40 ahead preflop. That's ONLY if homeboy is killing a card for you. You can push this edge hard now, to 50, 100, or 165, but that's a calculably large portion of your stack.If you just call, and you flop good (where "good" is defined as him having only 5 or 6 overcard outs), your equity changes from 60/40 to closer to 80/20. $100 x 60% equity = $60 adjusted valuebut...on the T-6-2 flop (reading him for overs) and THEN betting the $100, you have$100 x 80% equity = $80 adjusted value$80 > $60, so calling and betting the FLOP hard would be better than betting preflop.Of course, there's a tradeoff to calling preflop, because if you flop bad, then you're on the wrong side of the equity. That's okay though, because 88 is vulnerable to overcards anyway!!!Please ask any question you want to pertaining to this subject, it's one of the more important things to understand. Don't push tiny edges hard in no limit. Wait for the big edges.

Great stuff

[portcityplayer 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

If you raise $100 preflop, the pot is now $240 on the flop. Your last $65 at a $240 pot with a 7-3-2 flop... he's actually almost +EV to call with just two overs, EVEN IF homeboy is killing one.That's the whole point!!! Do you see?

[portcityplayer 0]

I think raising to $40-50 would've been a better play and a follow up bet of $100 if the flop is low cards or if it's checked to me. Let's keep in mind this player is only playing his cards, not mine..

At the risk of sounding patronizing, which I'm really not trying to be, I think this is a great opportunity to delve into the intricacies of "waiting for the turn to raise."This was the hardest concept for me to understand in limit hold'em, because I couldn't understand how you're supposed to just call one bet on the flop with AA in a 5-way capped pot, and then raise the turn.Here's the thing: You are at best 60/40 ahead preflop. That's ONLY if homeboy is killing a card for you. You can push this edge hard now, to 50, 100, or 165, but that's a calculably large portion of your stack.If you just call, and you flop good (where "good" is defined as him having only 5 or 6 overcard outs), your equity changes from 60/40 to closer to 80/20. $100 x 60% equity = $60 adjusted valuebut...on the T-6-2 flop (reading him for overs) and THEN betting the $100, you have$100 x 80% equity = $80 adjusted value$80 value > $60 value, so calling and betting the FLOP hard would be better than betting preflop.Of course, there's a tradeoff to calling preflop, because if you flop bad, then you're on the wrong side of the equity. That's okay though, because 88 is vulnerable to overcards anyway!!!Please ask any question you want to pertaining to this subject, it's one of the more important things to understand. Don't push tiny edges hard in no limit. Wait for the big edges.For the record, I know and don't care that the math isn't exactly right. Just pretend it is, and you'll see the underlying principles, which is the most important part.

TJ, first thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. Here's my question. If I just call then there is no money in the side pot between myself and the SB. UTG is all-in. The SB likely folds if I bet $100 on the flop if he does not pair. Then I'm down to a race with the BB for the main pot of $60. If I raise the flop and he folds, I'm in the same spot racing for the $60 in the pot with the UTG player. If I raise the flop and he calls and I know that he has big cards and will fold when he whiffs the flop, I have created that 66% equity and the move should have a +EV of $66 or whatever the exact chance is that he whiffs the flop with AQ (in this case)

[portcityplayer 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

If you raise $100 preflop, the pot is now $240 on the flop. Your last $65 at a $240 pot with a 7-3-2 flop... he's actually almost +EV to call with just two overs, EVEN IF homeboy is killing one.That's the whole point!!! Do you see?

There is $60 in the main pot between myself, UTG and the SB. There is now $200 in the main pot between myself and the SB.

[portcityplayer 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

If you raise $100 preflop, the pot is now $240 on the flop. Your last $65 at a $240 pot with a 7-3-2 flop... he's actually almost +EV to call with just two overs, EVEN IF homeboy is killing one.That's the whole point!!! Do you see?

There is $60 in the main pot between myself, UTG and the SB. There is now $200 in the main pot between myself and the SB.I agree, I made a mistake raising $100, it was too much, since it did not leave me enough chips to get him to fold even two overs.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Well, you're right, it wouldn't be very smart to bet $100 at a (if I counted right) a $50 main pot and a dry side pot.If we flop bad, which is what happened, we can get away from it for SB's pot sized bet. An added benefit to just calling is the pot is smaller, making it easier to get away from.If we flop good, we're in great shape to gamboool. SB has to act first. If he makes an ill-advised continuation bet with just overs, then we c0ck-slap him with our all-in in position.If he checks to us, we bet 50, to which he's paying dearly if he calls. If he calls that, hopefully the turn is safe for us to move in. It's no great catastrophe if he folds, and we're heads up running it out against UTG in a $50 pot with a made pair and 2 cards to come.In tournaments there's a gentleman's code about not playing dry side pots to knock someone out. The great thing about cash games is that it's aaaaaaaaall just money, and side pot or not, you're both contesting $50.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

and if the flop falls with big cards, and you invested your 40-50 with a reraise, then what do you do?Also, if you havent already, please read TJs post

[portcityplayer 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

and if the flop falls with big cards, and you invested your 40-50 with a reraise, then what do you do?Also, if you havent already, please read TJs post

I'm fold if he bets. But I bet the $40-50 with a +EV based on my read and the odds he would miss the flop and fold when I bet. It's much better than even money given the strong possibility he's sharing an ace.

[portcityplayer 0]

Well, you're right, it wouldn't be very smart to bet $100 at a (if I counted right) a $50 main pot and a dry side pot.If we flop bad, which is what happened, we can get away from it for SB's pot sized bet. An added benefit to just calling is the pot is smaller, making it easier to get away from.If we flop good, we're in great shape to gamboool. SB has to act first. If he makes an ill-advised continuation bet with just overs, then we c0ck-slap him with our all-in in position.If he checks to us, we bet 50, to which he's paying dearly if he calls. If he calls that, hopefully the turn is safe for us to move in. It's no great catastrophe if he folds, and we're heads up running it out against UTG in a $50 pot with a made pair and 2 cards to come.In tournaments there's a gentleman's code about not playing dry side pots to knock someone out. The great thing about cash games is that it's aaaaaaaaall just money, and side pot or not, you're both contesting $50.

The SB calling the raise with AQ was +EV for me, considering he misses the flop 2/3 of the time and check/folds when I bet the flop.. If he folds, that's fine too, now I can race without worrying about three or maybe even four overs.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Yes, you're right that SB calling the raise is +EV for you. But, you still have to fold $260 for $50 because the flop, like Judge Smails, says you'll get nothing and you'll like it.When we say EV+, we're just saying it's EV positive, that it has a positive expectation. The choices are EV positive, negative, or neutral. It doesn't say anything about how other ways to play it are comparatively MORE positive.$100 is bad, and we've agreed on it.$50 isn't as bad as $100, but it's still bad.The graph has a global maximum at calling. It's linear.Calling is good, because we get away cheaply when we flop bad, and can push a much bigger edge harder in position when we flop good.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

Its not exactly wise to value raise a coinflip.

It's not a coinflip if he only sees three cards. The small stack is all-in, the other guy has just flat called the re-raise and I am very confident that he has two big cards. He gets three cards, not five to make a pair.

and if the flop falls with big cards, and you invested your 40-50 with a reraise, then what do you do?Also, if you havent already, please read TJs post

I'm fold if he bets. But I bet the $40-50 with a +EV based on my read and the odds he would miss the flop and fold when I bet. It's much better than even money given the strong possibility he's sharing an ace.

Ok....I see your point and what your trying to do. Do you honestly think this is better than limping in and just smooth calling the raise, keep in mind that you believe you are a better player than him and have a good read him so you will know if he caught a piece of the flop, and if you happen to catch a nice flop you can fire a bet out there and put the pressure on him. And if it does happen to come out with big cards, you can get away cheap. I firmly believe that you have to play with the table. Meaning that if its a loose aggressive table, You shouldnt try and get in their and mix it up and push people around, because your most likely going to get called.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

When we say EV+, we're just saying it's EV positive, that it has a positive expectation. The choices are EV positive, negative, or neutral. It doesn't say anything about how other ways to play it are comparatively MORE positive.$100 is bad, and we've agreed on it.$50 isn't as bad as $100, but it's still bad.The graph has a global maximum at calling. It's linear.Calling is good, because we get away cheaply when we flop bad, and can push a much bigger edge harder in position when we flop good.

Damn hes good.

[portcityplayer 0]

When we say EV+, we're just saying it's EV positive, that it has a positive expectation.  The choices are EV positive, negative, or neutral.  It doesn't say anything about how other ways to play it are comparatively MORE positive.$100 is bad, and we've agreed on it.$50 isn't as bad as $100, but it's still bad.The graph has a global maximum at calling.  It's linear.Calling is good, because we get away cheaply when we flop bad, and can push a much bigger edge harder in position when we flop good.

Damn hes good.

His approach is more conservative but gives a lower expected value. If the SB folds, not only do I have a better statistical chance to win the hand since it's heads up, but I have the added equity in the pot from his $20 call and subsequent fold. If he calls and I'm correct on my read, we've created a nice side pot in which I'm a substantial favorite to win. I think you can play it both ways, I like the way I played it, I want the side pot, b/c UTG could have a monster hand, but now he's closed out. Plus, I always look for edges like this and think this was a unique and profitable opportunity.Thanks for the input TJ. I"ll keep considering your point, I just am not convinced yet.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

When we say EV+, we're just saying it's EV positive, that it has a positive expectation.  The choices are EV positive, negative, or neutral.  It doesn't say anything about how other ways to play it are comparatively MORE positive.$100 is bad, and we've agreed on it.$50 isn't as bad as $100, but it's still bad.The graph has a global maximum at calling.  It's linear.Calling is good, because we get away cheaply when we flop bad, and can push a much bigger edge harder in position when we flop good.

Damn hes good.

His approach is more conservative but gives a lower expected value. If the SB folds, not only do I have a better statistical chance to win the hand since it's heads up, but I have the added equity in the pot from his $20 call and subsequent fold. If he calls and I'm correct on my read, we've created a nice side pot in which I'm a substantial favorite to win. I think you can play it both ways, I like the way I played it, I want the side pot, b/c UTG could have a monster hand, but now he's closed out. Plus, I always look for edges like this and think this was a unique and profitable opportunity.Thanks for the input TJ. I"ll keep considering your point, I just am not convinced yet.

To each his own my friend. Good convo nonetheless.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I"ll keep considering your point, I just am not convinced yet.

Well I'll keep trying to convince you then.

His approach is more conservative but gives a lower expected value.

Let's talk about this. I think what you're forgetting is that everything is weighted by equity. EV is very amorphous at times... and I'm trying to prove that "maximizing aggregate EV now" (for lack of a better term) is NOT always as good as doing the same thing with a bigger edge.I think I was stressing the wrong thing with the whole "adjusted value" post.If we're 60/40 and bet $100, then maybe we should also look quantitatively at the "edge." If we're 60 and he's 40, then the edge is the difference, of 20%. Consider it a quality of the bet, like how vectors in physics have both magnitude and direction.That "magnitude" of an edge increases threefold if we bet the same amount with an 80/20 equity split... a 60% edge, which we can get for ourselves by passing up the 20% edge now (60/40 preflop vs. a possible 80/20 on the flop).The other details are just mitigating factors. The mitigating factors are that we're in position, we're heads up, we can fold if the board sucks, and we can decide if we wanna be committed or not ON the flop instead of BEFORE the flop.This is in no way substantiated by anything I've ever read in a poker book, by the way... and I've just made it up. I'm fully prepared to be wrong, but that's the best new way I can explain how it makes sense to me in my head.

[portcityplayer 0]

I"ll keep considering your point, I just am not convinced yet.

Well I'll keep trying to convince you then.

His approach is more conservative but gives a lower expected value.

Let's talk about this. I think what you're forgetting is that everything is weighted by equity. EV is very amorphous at times... and I'm trying to prove that "maximizing aggregate EV now" (for lack of a better term) is NOT always as good as doing the same thing with a bigger edge.I think I was stressing the wrong thing with the whole "adjusted value" post.If we're 60/40 and bet $100, then maybe we should also look quantitatively at the "edge." If we're 60 and he's 40, then the edge is the difference, of 20%. Consider it a quality of the bet, like how vectors in physics have both magnitude and direction.That "magnitude" of an edge increases threefold if we bet the same amount with an 80/20 equity split... a 60% edge, which we can get for ourselves by passing up the 20% edge now (60/40 preflop vs. a possible 80/20 on the flop).The other details are just mitigating factors. The mitigating factors are that we're in position, we're heads up, we can fold if the board sucks, and we can decide if we wanna be committed or not ON the flop instead of BEFORE the flop.This is in no way substantiated by anything I've ever read in a poker book, by the way... and I've just made it up. I'm fully prepared to be wrong, but that's the best new way I can explain how it makes sense to me in my head.

Without the added rather unusual detail of having a substantial main pot and dry side pot, I would probably have just called the raise with the 88 and played according to your description. Perhaps this hand represents a special case, where at the spur of the moment, I put the man on a hand and decided that the best way to make money in this situation was to raise. Either he was going to fold, and I'd gain equity in the main pot, or he'd call and I'd have a decided advantage in position and heads up in a five card race. My bet was too large, since I did not leave myself enough chips to force him out when he missed the flop, that was certainly a mistake. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense if the UTG player was not there and only the SB had raised into my BB. I don't think raising from the BB with the 88 would've been the optimal play based on your reasoning.

[Jordan 1]

wow you guys sure like beating a dead horse - Jordan

[screech 0]

This is an interesting thread. The underlying concepts of what play is right are very important if you want to be successful at any form of poker.I don't play many NL cash games, so I don't have the experience as many of you. Logic alone tells me TJ is correct here. It's not really that close.What's the best case scenario for your 88? That you're a 55/45 favorite. In fact, if you get called, you may easily be a 4.5:1 dog. The $100 raise pf was really pathetic. The best play is too call, but if you're insistent on pushing your edge, you should just push all-in.This is similar to the concept of forgoing a small edge now, to exploit a larger edge later in LHE. There is a big difference however. In NL, you can exploit that larger edge at a much greater price. Also, the concept is usually applied from the flop to the turn. Here it is pf to the flop. 3 cards get flipped up, so the equity change is much more drastic.But don't take my word for it. Here's an article by Sklansky that describes this concept. His example uses QQ vs AK, which is a much better position than 88 vs some random good hand. Here it is:http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue10...lansky1005.html

[portcityplayer 0]

This is an interesting thread. The underlying concepts of what play is right are very important if you want to be successful at any form of poker.What's the best case scenario for your 88? That you're a 55/45 favorite. http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue10...lansky1005.html

He's not going to get past the flop if he whiffs it. I'm going to push all-in and hopefully he'll fold just two overs. As I've said, I did not leave myself enough chips to get a good player to fold, and that was a mistake. If he only gets three cards and he misses 2/3 of the time, I'm a 2:1 favorite. I was absolutely positive that he had big cards and not an overpair based on his previous play and the way he played this hand. If you play mostly Internet poker, you probably don't understand what I'm talking about when I talk about reading a player and putting him on a hand. Sometimes, you can be close to 100% sure about your read.Regarding Sklansky's article, if I'm up against an aggressive player that I know will chase a flush draw, I'll typically wait until the turn card to make a big bet. I"ve found he's much more likely to fold with one card to come than two. A situation where pushing a larger edge later is something I definitely like to do.

[screech 0]

Sometimes, you can be close to 100% sure about your read.

Ok.Given your read, why didn't you wait until the flop so that you knew where you stood?Was your pf raise designed to get him to fold, or to get him to call as a very slight underdog?

[SBriand 4]

I won't claim to know **** but this doesn't seem to be making any sense to me so I will also use this as a learning experience. I haven't started reading my Theory of Poker yet so I am not up on the Equity part yet, but TJ is making me interested. :)So you have 88 and you think he has AQ or AK so you are going to push to get him to fold and if not hope to hit one of 2 cards. What's the chance at hitting your set on the flop 9%? But if you feel he is holding tow large cards does he not have a better chance of hitting one of 6 cards on the flop than you do of hitting 2? Yes, if you hit the 8 then you are looking damn good and your play makes you a fricken genius. I don't see why not waiting to the flop to eitehr go big or fold. I guess I could see going all in but to me it's just that all in or call preflop. I understand that you have your read on the guy and you wer correct but I am not getting your reasoning for raising AT ALL in that case. Don't flame me and ****, I am just here to learn and to learn sometimes you need to ask questions.Great topic though.