1/2 no limit hold em pre-flop raise

[shortbuy 0]

I'd like people's input on pre-flop raising in a 1/2 no limit cash game. I play in some games where people will fold to $8 pre-flop and then sometimes six players call $15 with any two cards. I just don't understand the logic of that. How should I adjust my betting to those totally different games to protect my hands? Should I just bet 10-15 everytime and plan on having to hit the flop? But then if I hit the flop, I have to play scared because there is no telling what the other players have.

[mr_english 0]

Thats the problem with low limit, the other night I had 5 5 and just called the BB, had four callers total, I hit trips on the flop and had one better ahead of me, I raised and had two callers. after that I bet on turn and river, a guy sucked out str8 on river, another hand TT and raise guy calls with Q 4, he ends up getting a Q on the river with me betting all the way.What I dont understand is what he was thinking, he has to know his Q4 is a dog preflop and even if he gets a Q his kicker sucks, thats why come the new year I am depositing a bigger bank roll and moving up the limits.I really only see this kinda play on line, never seems as bad in live play

[Tommyhawkers 0]

Thats the problem with low limit, the other night I had 5 5 and just called the BB, had four callers total, I hit trips on the flop and had one better ahead of me, I raised and had two callers. after that I bet on turn and river, a guy sucked out str8 on river, another hand TT and raise guy calls with Q 4, he ends up getting a Q on the river with me betting all the way.What I dont understand is what he was thinking, he has to know his Q4 is a dog preflop and even if he gets a Q his kicker sucks, thats why come the new year I am depositing a bigger bank roll and moving up the limits.I really only see this kinda play on line, never seems as bad in live play

Post Of The Day.

[PimpRock 0]

I think one of the other things to consider here is the size of the raise relative to your position.Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot. It is a major leak at this level where people raise vulnerable hands from the blinds, (AQ, AJ, AK, 9s, 10s etc) One caller starts a chain reaction and you are then forced to play big pots out of position.

[Scott3705 0]

Thats the problem with low limit, the other night I had 5 5 and just called the BB, had four callers total, I hit trips on the flop and had one better ahead of me, I raised and had two callers. after that I bet on turn and river, a guy sucked out str8 on river, another hand TT and raise guy calls with Q 4, he ends up getting a Q on the river with me betting all the way.I have no idea what this means. What I dont understand is what he was thinking, he has to know his Q4 is a dog preflop and even if he gets a Q his kicker sucks, thats why come the new year I am depositing a bigger bank roll and moving up the limits.Why move up in limits away from games that are that bad?I really only see this kinda play on line, never seems as bad in live playLive 1/2 Nl is like .05/.10 online NL in my opinion. atleast where i play

To the OP....online 3x's-4x's the BB is a good open raise. Live.. you gotta just go with the table and except it plays richer than its online counterpart. Usually i'm raising 5-6x's BB at 1/2 live. A lot of people will just bet $15 to make it an even three red chips.

[Chief 0]

I'd like people's input on pre-flop raising in a 1/2 no limit cash game. I play in some games where people will fold to $8 pre-flop and then sometimes six players call $15 with any two cards. I just don't understand the logic of that. How should I adjust my betting to those totally different games to protect my hands? Should I just bet 10-15 everytime and plan on having to hit the flop? But then if I hit the flop, I have to play scared because there is no telling what the other players have.

what is the MINIMUM raise that could potentially get the table to fold their cards. raise that amount, and generally be consistent with that amount. in 1/2 NL when the max buyin is 200 or 300, sometimes its $12 - 15 i find, othertimes its a bit more.

[macphec 0]

I think one of the other things to consider here is the size of the raise relative to your position.Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot. It is a major leak at this level where people raise vulnerable hands from the blinds, (AQ, AJ, AK, 9s, 10s etc) One caller starts a chain reaction and you are then forced to play big pots out of position.

Very good point. I see way too many players making a 3 or 4x bb raise from sb or bb w this type of hand. If you're lucky one limper will fold but that's about it

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

This question can't be answered, really, without, I dunno, a thousand questions being answered, but, I'll give it a shot.-Raise less from the blinds, it will typically do you no good, other than to build a pot for someone else if you miss since you're out of position.-Raise more from early position. That's a good way to avoid getting 8 callers behind.-Don't bitch about people calling down with straight draws when you have a set, this is how you make money.-Just fold small pocket pairs from early position. Whatever you do, do not raise a hand lower than say, JJ at a very loose table. If you think you need to see a flop from UTG with 66, then limp and no set/no bet. I don't care if the flop comes 4 high. -Play suited connectors more liberally in multiway pots.-Do not over value big pocket pairs in multiway pots.-Small pocket pairs in late position will make you more money than AA if you play them correctly. I promise.-Don't raise with hands like AK and AQ from late position when you have more than say, ONE, person in front of you. -Do not play hands like AJ, AT, A9 from early position. -When you have KK in a multi way pot, just because there's no A doesn't mean you're beat. Be willing to get away from high pocket pairs--seriously.

[Chief 0]

-When you have KK in a multi way pot, just because there's no A doesn't mean you're not beat. Be willing to get away from high pocket pairs--seriously.

fypnh

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Yay..thanks.

[Scott3705 0]

-Raise more from early position. That's a good way to avoid getting 8 callers behind.My random thought on this.... In a tough game I think Chris Ferguson once advocated raising the minimum because your hand should get enough respect in an article sent out to FT members. -Don't raise with hands like AK and AQ from late position when you have more than say, ONE, person in front of you. :cry:Edit: Don't take Jesus' advice @ a 1/2 table. Just thought it was interesting to hear him advocate a min raise.

[tufat23 0]

i play 0.15/0.25 and 0.25/0.5 NL and agree that AK and AQ are dangerous hands to be playing. especially AQ i find its the toughest hand to play.

-Don't raise with hands like AK and AQ from late position when you have more than say, ONE, person in front of you.

take it u mean if say u see 4x BB raise and at least 1 caller. its an obvious raise if theres limpers in front.also i find i make much more money from pairs 44-jj than the premium ones, as i tend to go with no set no bet. also its usually a no brainer play. dont know if im playing the big pairs wrong. i always raise the same amount as when i raise my AK, AQ, JJ but for some reason i dont seem to get action (might just be down to luck as its only just started happening), and when i do i either win a relatively small pot or lose a relatively large pot(or go broke). suited connectors are valuable becuase theres generally a lot more multiway limped pots, however it should be reserved for later positions IMO.what do u guys think to calling say 4x BB with pp range of 66-jj?i've started doing it in multiway pots because of the huge value of sets.i've even streched to 22-55 if someones on tilt and got a reasonable stack cos any TPTK is going in.although i wont be getting implied odds every time i suspect the times when i can bust someone are great enough to compensate, but i'd like to know what other people think.

[portcityplayer 0]

My random thought on this.... In a tough game I think Chris Ferguson once advocated raising the minimum because your hand should get enough respect in an article sent out to FT members. :cry:Edit: Don't take Jesus' advice @ a 1/2 table. Just thought it was interesting to hear him advocate a min raise.

he actually advocates raising the minimum amount required to get the job done. In a $1/2 game if you are speeding around raising every pot, I don't care if you raise it to $20, you are going to get callers. I like to keep raises consistent, but not always the same amount. If I'm going to raise pre-flop, I try to make the caller call a slightly larger than "pot-sized" raised.I make the calculation by counting the callers in-front of me and rounding up to the nearest $5, anything less will just be too tempting to someone.If I'm opening with a raise, it depends on the table, but most times I'll open it for $8 + $2 for each caller in front. If you have two callers in front of you and you make it $8, the BB will almost always call and then the odds for the callers in front will be too tempting.If you don't feel comfortable raising that much with your hand, you should re-evaluate why you want to raise.

[Scott3705 0]

he actually advocates raising the minimum amount required to get the job done.He actually advocating raising to 2BB'sI like to keep raises consistent, but not always the same amount.  If I'm going to raise pre-flop, I try to make the caller call a slightly larger than "pot-sized" raised.I don't like this.  If you open for a slightly more than pot size bet you're min raising. I think you probably meant something else though based  on your example below.If I'm opening with a raise, it depends on the table, but most times I'll open it for $8 + $2 for each caller in front.  If you have two callers in front of you and you make it $8, the BB will almost always call and then the odds for the callers in front will be too tempting.I like 4x's BBpreflop just as you do online.  Live, you need to pop it more than 4x's.  Just too many loose calls preflop.If you don't feel comfortable raising that much with your hand, you should re-evaluate why you want to raise.Great comment. When i first began playin poker I used to raise because I just had the thought I should.  Completely diregarded position, what i was really trying to do... what kinda flop is i was looking for etc.

[coppedit 0]

I think one of the other things to consider here is the size of the raise relative to your position.Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot. It is a major leak at this level where people raise vulnerable hands from the blinds, (AQ, AJ, AK, 9s, 10s etc) One caller starts a chain reaction and you are then forced to play big pots out of position.

that is a good point. in lower limits, tournaments espeically($10 SnG), i see a 3-4 callers and am BB with a solid hand, AQ, KQ, AJ, and raise, only to be re-raised an insane amount or maybe even pushed all in. i understand its a low limit, and i would like to move up in limit for this very reason, but id have to imagine that this type of thing happens at the $20SnG too? or not so much?

[Scott3705 0]

that is a good point. in lower limits, tournaments espeically($10 SnG), i see a 3-4 callers and am BB with a solid hand, AQ, KQ, AJ, and raise, only to be re-raised an insane amount or maybe even pushed all in. i understand its a low limit, and i would like to move up in limit for this very reason, but id have to imagine that this type of thing happens at the $20SnG too? or not so much?

If I get your question... your concerned about limp riasing here? Some people would consider this a very valid play. it's actually the way Doyle says to play AA in EP. (not this guy though). Why exactly do you want to move up in limits? I just didn't fully understand the reason.

[Shizzmoney 0]

Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot.

I like that as well. Especially AQ, even suited. People overvalue AQ way too much in cash games.I call with AQ most of the time for a few reasons:1) Although it is a premium hand, it is still VERY vulnerable in NLHE. If you hit your Queen, you might be beat by KK or AA; and if you hit your Ace, you could still be up against AK or a set or even a straight with, say, a Q98 board and be trapped with a difficult decision with the hand if re-raised (especially out of position).2) In calling with it, you are playing it slow, and when you DO flop a big hand with AQ, you will get paid off with it much more in a multiway pot as supposed to as if you raised with it, which tips off the strength of your hand. It is always nice to flop a broadway straight with AQ in a limped pot, get paid a very nice 145 dollar pot with it from someone who went all-in with their J10 two pair (as I did last wednesday), followed by them saying, "Wow, you didn't RAISE THAT?". It adds unpredicatblity to your game, and that equals profit.3) Doyle Brunson hates the hand, and if one of the best of all time doesn't like it, then its a hand I am weary of playing as well.The only time you raise AQ is when it is folded to you and you are first to act preflop, preferably in middle position (and only if suited; if not throw it away or limp), or if you are confident in your reading abilities with callers ahead of you, and have a good table image, raising with it in late position in hopes of buying the button, finding out where you are at (if you are re-raised preflop, you just saved yourself a lot of money by throwing it away) and thinning the field (although in loose aggressive games, like the ones I play in, it is often a bad idea to do this because people will often just call you anyways, and it will be harder to read 3-4 opponents rather than one. You have to have an acute sense of the game you play and how often they fold when they already have money in the pot).I usually play AK more aggressively because it can win pots by itself, especially if you can isolate a maniac or a bluffer (again, reading abilities must be paramount.

[Chief 0]

Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot.

I like that as well. Especially AQ, even suited. People overvalue AQ way too much in cash games.I call with AQ most of the time for a few reasons:1) Although it is a premium hand, it is still VERY vulnerable in NLHE. If you hit your Queen, you might be beat by KK or AA; and if you hit your Ace, you could still be up against AK or a set or even a straight with, say, a Q98 board and be trapped with a difficult decision with the hand if re-raised (especially out of position).2) In calling with it, you are playing it slow, and when you DO flop a big hand with AQ, you will get paid off with it much more in a multiway pot as supposed to as if you raised with it, which tips off the strength of your hand. It is always nice to flop a broadway straight with AQ in a limped pot, get paid a very nice 145 dollar pot with it from someone who went all-in with their J10 two pair (as I did last wednesday), followed by them saying, "Wow, you didn't RAISE THAT?". It adds unpredicatblity to your game, and that equals profit.3) Doyle Brunson hates the hand, and if one of the best of all time doesn't like it, then its a hand I am weary of playing as well.The only time you raise AQ is when it is folded to you and you are first to act preflop, preferably in middle position (and only if suited; if not throw it away or limp), or if you are confident in your reading abilities with callers ahead of you, and have a good table image, raising with it in late position in hopes of buying the button, finding out where you are at (if you are re-raised preflop, you just saved yourself a lot of money by throwing it away) and thinning the field (although in loose aggressive games, like the ones I play in, it is often a bad idea to do this because people will often just call you anyways, and it will be harder to read 3-4 opponents rather than one. You have to have an acute sense of the game you play and how often they fold when they already have money in the pot).I usually play AK more aggressively because it can win pots by itself, especially if you can isolate a maniac or a bluffer (again, reading abilities must be paramount.

good post.you going to play anytime soon in boston?i cant wait to bust your ass in a tourney 8) unless of course you andy and i get blinded out first :cry:

[SapphireTiger 0]

unfortunately you can't have some standard raising play when you're playin g live. The amount you raise is totally dictated on your table. If everyone is calling 3x 4x bb then you have to be willing to raise upwards of even 9x 10x the bb. Just experiment raising different amoutns until you find the MINIMUM amount to raise that will get enough people to respect your hand.

[coppedit 0]

Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot.

I like that as well. Especially AQ, even suited. People overvalue AQ way too much in cash games.I call with AQ most of the time for a few reasons:1) Although it is a premium hand, it is still VERY vulnerable in NLHE. If you hit your Queen, you might be beat by KK or AA; and if you hit your Ace, you could still be up against AK or a set or even a straight with, say, a Q98 board and be trapped with a difficult decision with the hand if re-raised (especially out of position).2) In calling with it, you are playing it slow, and when you DO flop a big hand with AQ, you will get paid off with it much more in a multiway pot as supposed to as if you raised with it, which tips off the strength of your hand. It is always nice to flop a broadway straight with AQ in a limped pot, get paid a very nice 145 dollar pot with it from someone who went all-in with their J10 two pair (as I did last wednesday), followed by them saying, "Wow, you didn't RAISE THAT?". It adds unpredicatblity to your game, and that equals profit.3) Doyle Brunson hates the hand, and if one of the best of all time doesn't like it, then its a hand I am weary of playing as well.The only time you raise AQ is when it is folded to you and you are first to act preflop, preferably in middle position (and only if suited; if not throw it away or limp), or if you are confident in your reading abilities with callers ahead of you, and have a good table image, raising with it in late position in hopes of buying the button, finding out where you are at (if you are re-raised preflop, you just saved yourself a lot of money by throwing it away) and thinning the field (although in loose aggressive games, like the ones I play in, it is often a bad idea to do this because people will often just call you anyways, and it will be harder to read 3-4 opponents rather than one. You have to have an acute sense of the game you play and how often they fold when they already have money in the pot).I usually play AK more aggressively because it can win pots by itself, especially if you can isolate a maniac or a bluffer (again, reading abilities must be paramount.

good post.you going to play anytime soon in boston?i cant wait to bust your ass in a tourney 8) unless of course you andy and i get blinded out first :cry:

Chief,a good post. your right about over valuing AQ. Since ive wrote my original response, i have first hand seen the effects of over valuing such hands. your post makes it that much clearer. I am starting to approach hands with the mentality, "if i make a significant raise with several limpers before me, would i be willing to call an all in raise." if the answer to that is no, then i will make a raise that will be 2, maybe 3xs the BB. that way, i get more money into the pot while i have the best hand, but i still get to see the flop and make a decision after the flop. With so many limpers, there is a good chance someone has an as good, if not better hand that you. so by raising 4/5xs the BB, it is just Is this a bonehead mentality, or is this something that other people sometimes follow as well?

[coppedit 0]

Example, if there is 4 limpers and you got AQ in the BB, I wouldnt raise in that spot.

I like that as well. Especially AQ, even suited. People overvalue AQ way too much in cash games.I call with AQ most of the time for a few reasons:1) Although it is a premium hand, it is still VERY vulnerable in NLHE. If you hit your Queen, you might be beat by KK or AA; and if you hit your Ace, you could still be up against AK or a set or even a straight with, say, a Q98 board and be trapped with a difficult decision with the hand if re-raised (especially out of position).2) In calling with it, you are playing it slow, and when you DO flop a big hand with AQ, you will get paid off with it much more in a multiway pot as supposed to as if you raised with it, which tips off the strength of your hand. It is always nice to flop a broadway straight with AQ in a limped pot, get paid a very nice 145 dollar pot with it from someone who went all-in with their J10 two pair (as I did last wednesday), followed by them saying, "Wow, you didn't RAISE THAT?". It adds unpredicatblity to your game, and that equals profit.3) Doyle Brunson hates the hand, and if one of the best of all time doesn't like it, then its a hand I am weary of playing as well.The only time you raise AQ is when it is folded to you and you are first to act preflop, preferably in middle position (and only if suited; if not throw it away or limp), or if you are confident in your reading abilities with callers ahead of you, and have a good table image, raising with it in late position in hopes of buying the button, finding out where you are at (if you are re-raised preflop, you just saved yourself a lot of money by throwing it away) and thinning the field (although in loose aggressive games, like the ones I play in, it is often a bad idea to do this because people will often just call you anyways, and it will be harder to read 3-4 opponents rather than one. You have to have an acute sense of the game you play and how often they fold when they already have money in the pot).I usually play AK more aggressively because it can win pots by itself, especially if you can isolate a maniac or a bluffer (again, reading abilities must be paramount.

good post.you going to play anytime soon in boston?i cant wait to bust your ass in a tourney 8) unless of course you andy and i get blinded out first :cry:

Chief,a good post. your right about over valuing AQ. Since ive wrote my original response, i have first hand seen the effects of over valuing such hands. your post makes it that much clearer. I am starting to approach hands with the mentality, "if i make a significant raise with several limpers before me, would i be willing to call an all in raise." if the answer to that is no, then i will make a raise that will be 2, maybe 3xs the BB. that way, i get more money into the pot while i have the best hand, but i still get to see the flop and make a decision after the flop. Is this a bonehead mentality, or is this something that other people sometimes follow as well?