i'm confused, i call.

[screech 0]

I really had no idea how to play any street besides PF here. I just sat down at a pacific table with a 50% VPIP.Hero is dealt A 3 .Hero limps from EP, MP call, LP calls, blinds call.Flop (5SB): A K 6 (5 players)SB bets, Hero calls??? , all call.Turn (5 BB): J (5 players)SB bets, Hero calls???, MP calls (5 players)River (8SB): 2 SB checks, Hero bets???, MP calls, SB folds.I suck. Why?

[RaynorWolfcastle 0]

Take my advice with a grain of salt because you're a more experienced player than me but:you're playing A3s for the flush, not the aces right?Once an ace hits though, I'd want to check where I stand.so I would raise the flop, fold to a reraise. Any cold calls also means I don't add any more money and fold to any bet on the turn/river.That could be weak on my part but I figure with any calls I'm way more likely to be behind than ahead so I'm ready to dump my cards unless I make Aces up on the turn or river.

[Abbaddabba 0]

At a table with a 50% VPIP average, im not sure cold calling necessarily means that you're behind.

[econ_tim 0]

you're playing A3s for the flush, not the aces right?

No. He's playing for the combined strength of the ace and the flush draw.

[RaynorWolfcastle 0]

At a table with a 50% VPIP average, im not sure cold calling necessarily means that you're behind.

I'd rather leave money on the table in this situation than be drawing to 3 outs even on an exceptionally loose table. If anything the high VPIP would tell me that there's a good chance that there's someone else is playing A-rag off (where there's a good chance their rag is better than my rag)

[screech 0]

Hey Raynor, thanks for your response.My thinking on the flop was that the pot is small enough that gutshots/weaker pairs can't call profitably even if I don't raise. Since no stronger hands are folding, and I don't really need to raise to protect my hand, I just called since I felt my hand was good enough to continue.I don't really like raising solely for info, although I guess it could be for value if I hold the best hand.My thinking was similar for the turn. However, when I never picked up my flush draw, I wonder if I should just release my hand here.??On the river, I felt SB wasn't trying a sneaky c/r, and I felt that MP would surely bet any hands that beat me and check those I beat. I also felt he'd call with a lot of hands that beat me.I don't mind my river play so much. It's the flop and turn that I'm most concerned wiht.

[Abbaddabba 0]

There's a good chance that they're playing _anything_, nevermind ace rag. Many ace rags are going to chop with you in this hand too.He hasnt been given any strong reason to believe he's behind and he has a bd flush draw to accompany his top pair.

[Guest]

Take my advice with a grain of salt because you're a more experienced player than me but:you're playing A3s for the flush, not the aces right?Once an ace hits though, I'd want to check where I stand.so I would raise the flop, fold to a reraise. Any cold calls also means I don't add any more money and fold to any bet on the turn/river.That could be weak on my part but I figure with any calls I'm way more likely to be behind than ahead so I'm ready to dump my cards unless I make Aces up on the turn or river.

I agree with the raise on the flop but the folding to a 3-bet is bad. Unless the table is rediculously passive, you easily have odds to try and hit the 3 on the turn or see if the turn is at least a spade for the backdoor flush possibility.Also a raise on the flop may knock out a slightly better ace like A4 or A7 and hurts people trying to get lucky with KX.

I'd rather leave money on the table in this situation than be drawing to 3 outs even on an exceptionally loose table. If anything the high VPIP would tell me that there's a good chance that there's someone else is playing A-rag off (where there's a good chance their rag is better than my rag)

This is good to think about, but you can't ignore the fact that a large amount of the time you will split with an A rag because a low kicker will get nullified.In general, something you seem to be missing is that you don't have to win anywhere near a majority of the time for calling down here to be profitable. Especially with the overlay of the cold callers you're going to get on Pacific Poker.Zara

[Guest]

Hey Raynor, thanks for your response.My thinking on the flop was that the pot is small enough that gutshots/weaker pairs can't call profitably even if I don't raise. Since no stronger hands are folding, and I don't really need to raise to protect my hand, I just called since I felt my hand was good enough to continue.I don't really like raising solely for info, although I guess it could be for value if I hold the best hand.My thinking was similar for the turn. However, when I never picked up my flush draw, I wonder if I should just release my hand here.??On the river, I felt SB wasn't trying a sneaky c/r, and I felt that MP would surely bet any hands that beat me and check those I beat. I also felt he'd call with a lot of hands that beat me.I don't mind my river play so much. It's the flop and turn that I'm most concerned wiht.

This is horribly weak thinking. No matter what you do, this pot is going to get "large" by the end. How is it not better to make the players make a bigger mistake by raising in this position? Plus, with implied odds, I believe it IS profitable for something like K10 to call that flop for 1 bet as the action is in front of them and they're almost guaranteed to get a raise in on the turn and get called down on the river.As for the bet on the river, it's a narrow value bet but probably worth it. If you get raised, it's an easy fold and by betting you gain a bet from somebody calling down with a K while you don't lose much extra if you're beat.ZaraP.S. If there is ever a bet and a raise somewhere, this hand is VERY easy to get away from.P.P.S What was the river card? If it was a 10 or higher than a check is better as you're too likely to get raised and would rather check/call.

[RaynorWolfcastle 0]

There's a good chance that they're playing _anything_, nevermind ace rag. Many ace rags are going to chop with you in this hand too.He hasnt been given any strong reason to believe he's behind and he has a bd flush draw to accompany his top pair.

I'm assuming here that he has a tight enough image that people will have *some* respect for his raise.Now assume he does what I did (raise the flop), and gets two cold callers and a call from the original raiser (because everyone here is a calling station). Now the original raiser has to be worried about this raise and 2 cold calls (getting sandbagged by a cold caller?) so I'd say he's unlikely to bet out in front of screetch on the turn if he's not a complete donk.IMHO, there's a 50/50 chance that a flop raise buys you a look at the river. So you'd end up putting in a SB on the flop rather than a BB on the turn and the others are worried now about what you're holding rather than putting you on some sort of weak draw.The river would likely play out the same way, though you could raise the river if you're feeling particularly aggressive.

[Guest]

There's a good chance that they're playing _anything_' date=' nevermind ace rag. Many ace rags are going to chop with you in this hand too.He hasnt been given any strong reason to believe he's behind and he has a bd flush draw to accompany his top pair.[/quote']I'm assuming here that he has a tight enough image that people will have *some* respect for his raise.Don't ignore the fact that the players may not be paying any attention to things like this. The games on Pacific are notoriously weak and they could blithely ignore this.Now assume he does what I did (raise the flop)' date=' and gets two cold callers and a call from the original raiser (because everyone here is a calling station). Now the original raiser has to be worried about this raise and 2 cold calls (getting sandbagged by a cold caller?) so I'd say he's unlikely to bet out in front of screetch on the turn if he's not a complete donk.Good reasoning, this is exactly why you should raise the flop.IMHO, there's a 50/50 chance that a flop raise buys you a look at the river. So you'd end up putting in a SB on the flop rather than a BB on the turn and the others are worried now about what you're holding rather than putting you on some sort of weak draw.The river would likely play out the same way, though you could raise the river if you're feeling particularly aggressive.Raising the rive here against bad players is horrible. You aren't ahead/split enough for it to be for value and it's highly unlikely you'll fold a hand that would beat you.Overall, your reasoning is very sound and it's great that you state it in your responses.Zara

[WonderfulSplash 0]

Hey Raynor, thanks for your response.My thinking on the flop was that the pot is small enough that gutshots/weaker pairs can't call profitably even if I don't raise. Since no stronger hands are folding, and I don't really need to raise to protect my hand, I just called since I felt my hand was good enough to continue.I don't really like raising solely for info, although I guess it could be for value if I hold the best hand.My thinking was similar for the turn. However, when I never picked up my flush draw, I wonder if I should just release my hand here.??On the river, I felt SB wasn't trying a sneaky c/r, and I felt that MP would surely bet any hands that beat me and check those I beat. I also felt he'd call with a lot of hands that beat me.I don't mind my river play so much. It's the flop and turn that I'm most concerned wiht.

This is horribly weak thinking. No matter what you do, this pot is going to get "large" by the end. How is it not better to make the players make a bigger mistake by raising in this position? Plus, with implied odds, I believe it IS profitable for something like K10 to call that flop for 1 bet as the action is in front of them and they're almost guaranteed to get a raise in on the turn and get called down on the river.

I think you missed the point of him not raising. He doesn't want to bloat the pot with a VERY vulnerable hand. He is more than willing to fold it to any serious agression behind him, and thus doesn't want to put in two bets with a hand that is often crushed.

[screech 0]

This is horribly weak thinking. No matter what you do, this pot is going to get "large" by the end. How is it not better to make the players make a bigger mistake by raising in this position?

Sure raising when I have the best hand increases my opponents mistakes if my opponents have worse hands.There are two problems with raising as I see it:1) SB likely has a stronger ace here. My opponents are likely drawing to 5 outs if they are behind. Raising will usually result in me getting HU drawing against SB. However, if I call, my opponents are much more likely to unprofitably call with their weak draws.2) Raising does not get any stronger hands than mine to fold.Simply calling here instead of raising may be weak, but it doesn't bother me if calling is more profitable.

[screech 0]

I believe it IS profitable for something like K10 to call that flop for 1 bet

KT and KJ are the only two holdinds raising may protect my hand from. In fact, I think these hands can profitably call even if I do raise getting 4:1.The more I think about this hand, the more I feel like a flop raise is wrong.

[Guest]

I think you missed the point of him not raising. He doesn't want to bloat the pot with a VERY vulnerable hand. He is more than willing to fold it to any serious agression behind him, and thus doesn't want to put in two bets with a hand that is often crushed.

Quite often, you're not crushed though. Even if you're behind you are rarely more than a 2-1 underdog and by raising on the flop you will quite often get a free river if you don't hit a 3 or a spade. Also, with the way the action went and I was in LP was something as little as 10Q or 10J for a gutshot it's profitable to call when it's not raised.Raising here will at least get it down to 3-way and most likely heads up between you and the SB, this GREATLY increases your chances of winning. For example, assume the SB has A 9 . Let MP1 have K 8 , MP2 have 5 6 , and LP 10 Q . The percent to win are as follows (as expressed in terms of expected return from pot in case of splits):SB=28.5%Hero=16.3%MP1=15.5%MP2=20.2%LP=19.4%As you can see, you don't have that great of a chance of winning. Also note that each of these people with weak draws can call 1 bet profitably because of implied odds (they're each getting at least 7-1 on the call) if they catch something good on the turn. By only calling, the other players are NOT making a mistake. Now if you raise, they are getting 3.5-1 and it's borderline at best if they call. Most likely they will all fold with possibly MP1 calling with his K. NOW, if the other people call they are making a mistake that you can profit from since it's no guarantee that anyone else even has an A.Also, by raising, you stand a very good chance of being able to see the river for 1SB with your raise instead of 1BB as your call. This immediately yields a benefit, not to mention how much your chances to win improve and the fact you may the best hand anyway or can scare away another weak A behind you with your raise that you may lose to or split with.With 3 left the percentages are:SB=55.7%Hero=27.4%MP1=16.9%With 3 left:SB=71.9%Hero=28.1%In both cases you more than double your chance of winning the pot which is a huge bonus. This coupled with the fact you may even be ahead, if you catch a spade or 3 on the turn and you bet the other people may fold and you are very likely to get a free river anyway should make this an easy raise. It's close, but the free card alone can make this worth it, even assuming you fold on the river to a bet if your hand is unimproved.In all, by only calling you almost HAVE to improve to win the pot while by raising you don't. By showing aggression you can pick up the pot in a myriad of other ways or at the very least see a cheaper river card.Zara

[Guest]

This is horribly weak thinking. No matter what you do, this pot is going to get "large" by the end. How is it not better to make the players make a bigger mistake by raising in this position?

Sure raising when I have the best hand increases my opponents mistakes if my opponents have worse hands.There are two problems with raising as I see it:1) SB likely has a stronger ace here. My opponents are likely drawing to 5 outs if they are behind. Raising will usually result in me getting HU drawing against SB. However, if I call, my opponents are much more likely to unprofitably call with their weak draws.If you only call, it's not unprofitable for small draws like that to try and hit (see my response above)2) Raising does not get any stronger hands than mine to fold.Another weak A here like A7 (a 2-1 favorite over you) or A5 (a coin flip) is going to be very hard pressed to call two cold with a weak A like that.Simply calling here instead of raising may be weak, but it doesn't bother me if calling is more profitable.

Part of the point is raising is putting a lot of pressure on hands behind you that might be slightly better than your but are going to have a hard time calling 2 cold when they will gladly call 1.Zara

[screech 0]

For example, assume the SB has A 9 . Let MP1 have K 8 , MP2 have 5 6 , and LP 10 Q . The percent to win are as follows (as expressed in terms of expected return from pot in case of splits): SB=28.5% Hero=16.3% MP1=15.5% MP2=20.2% LP=19.4%

Just wondering where you got these numbers?? I don't see how QT could possibly have 19.4% equity. I think it's closer to 17%.Also, these numbers assume everyone goes to showdown. Most of the hands will fold the turn UI. If they don't, then they're making a mistake.

With 3 left the percentages are: SB=55.7% Hero=27.4% MP1=16.9%

So we put in 33% of the money as a 27% favorite?? That can't be good. Also your hand ranges assume that everyone behind us has a weaker hand that they could continue wiht. A lot of the times they will have nothing. Other times, they will have us beat, and we get 3-bet on the flop, or the turn gets bet anyway.

In general, something you seem to be missing is that you don't have to win anywhere near a majority of the time for calling down here to be profitable. Especially with the overlay of the cold callers you're going to get on Pacific Poker.

Another weak A here like A7 (a 2-1 favorite over you) or A5 (a coin flip) is going to be very hard pressed to call two cold with a weak A like that.

So you're going to get overlay from people cold-calling with weaker hands, but they're folding hands that have us beat? I don't quite follow you here...

[Guest]

I used http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas...oldem/index.php with suits as described. a 2% difference can easily be due to a slight difference in who has what suits.As for the other stuff, we seem have a difference of opinion on what hand ranges the other people can have and our chances of getting a slightly better hand to fold.From my experience I earn slightly more by being aggressive in this position than by being passive here. This may be a small sample size or dependent upon other playing style differences so I'm perceived differently at the table. No matter how you want to cut it though, it's a small difference with raising or only calling so it probably doesn't matter that much in the end.Zara

[Sysvr4 0]

I believe very strongly the flop is raise or fold. I tend to raise here because my relative position to the better is just beautiful. I can put two cold to the field here to get it heads up and then I still have position on the better. Raising > folding > calling IMOJeff

[screech 0]

Jeff,Why do you think folding is better than calling?

[Sysvr4 0]

Reverse implied odds, mainly. If someone behind you makes a better hand, or if you're already beat and they're waiting to spring the trap you lose more by calling the flop (and presumably calling down) than you would if you just folded here (or raised).I want middle and bottom pair to fold this flop. Hell, I want everyone to fold the flop, but I'll take the donkeys behind me :)Jeff

[rog 0]

I think the raise is best, fold is second, and calling is last. Raising has lots of good properties. May thin the field. A 3-bet followed by a turn lead from SB, and you can get out of your hand pretty easily. If you pick up the flush draw, you may get a free look at the river . I hate calling here. If it's not best on the flop, calling down is very weak. If the pot is too small to raise the flop, why not just fold? SB is going to lead again if you just call. The line you used is standard for WA/WB. You are definitely NOT WA here. You could well be WB.

[LaydownKing 0]

YOU MUST RAISE THE FLOP DON'T GIVE 5-OUTERS ODDS TO DRAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[screech 0]

Ok, I've thought about this hand a bit more, read some more replies, and now I believe that raising this flop is best.The presence of the king on the board really helps my hand, since it could end up solving my kicker troubles. This fact, along with my bd flush draw mean folding is out of the question. Even if I am behind, I have outs to chop. Raising is better than calling for a lot of the reasons people have already posted. One thing I want any hand that contains a 6 to fold, regardless of whether or not they are making a mistake by calling. Getting this hand to fold will buy me 2 chopping outs.Anyway, thanks to everyone who responded to this seemingly stardard hand. Calling this flop felt wrong and as someone mentioned, "weak-tight", but I couldn't think of any convincing reasons why raising this flop is better until I read these posts. I'll try to make sure the next hand I post isn't so trivial. :-)

[Bubba83 0]

I'm calling the flop, folding the turn. When the SB bets out again on the turn I think that means he's got you beat. Afterall, everyone called his flop bet, and he's still betting into everyone on the turn despite the fact he could be raised by someone slow playing. Even if he doesnt ave you beat, someone could have flat called with two pair or trips, or hit two pair or trips on the turn. I hate your position in this hand acting right after the SB. With so many people behind you left to act, it's quite likely they wanted to wait til the turn for a raise, which puts you in a really bad spot since you're first to act behind the SB and so many people could be hoping to raise behind you, I fold on the turn.I don't think this is a weak tight play.SB checking the river is laughable, I am still wondering what he could have possibly had, a king maybe?What did MP have?