stack size in large tournaments

[amarillotg 0]

Just wondering if anyone has any strategies when it comes to building a large stack early in a large tournament.I usually play NL Holdem tourny's on Party Poker @ the $22 or $33 buy-in level.My strategy so far has been to let the maniacs knock each other out early on and to sit back and wait for some premium hands. While this has helped me get to the later stages of tournaments I am never more than an average stack throughout the tournament. When I get to the point of the tournament (say 200 left out of 1000) I feel like my average stack cannot handle the size of the bets as almost every pot is raised pre-flop. This forces me to go back to a more conservative style and wait for big hands to take on the big stacks. Ultimately unless the deck hits me square in the face I am busted on a all-in with a less than premium hand.Can anyone offer some advice?

[wrto4556 0]

Yes, I am not good at tournaments, but getting and playing a big stack is the only thing I know how to do. :-) You are right to play conservatively early on. But when you get a hand, don't be afraid to double up. Once you get any kind of chip advantage you start rockin the boat. If someone with less chips than you raises preflop, put them in for all their chips (if they are good, and if you have a decent hand). Start being super aggressive and taking pots. People notice, then you start to tighten up, and when you get a good hand, move all in or devise some way to get all your chips in the middle...they will remember your aggressive plays earlier and call with a second best hand, hoping you're just trying to "make a move" with your chips. I'm just very very aggressive with a big stack...the way to get a big stack, is to be aggressive the first time you get any kind of chip advantage.When you have an average stack and everyone is raising you out of a pot...don't be scared to make a move. If it's been raised, go all in and see if you can pick up the pot...it's those kinds of plays that build up your stack and give you room to make more plays of the same kind.Now this is probably a leak in my game, but if i'm getting good odds, or if i'm trying to bust someone, I will call all ins with alot of garbage if I have plenty of chips. T7s, J8s, etc.I play very loose/aggressive in a tournament. I either make it in the money with a huge chip lead...or bust out early. I've been working on it, because sometimes I get that good chip lead, and am playing beautifuly and end up blowing it all. You got to know when to switch gears...which is something that I've been trying to master. Once I get a chip lead...it's LAG all the way to the final table. I either win or lose. PS. I'm dangerous. 8) hahahahaI'm sure I'll have someone disagree, but that's how I play.

[Spidurman 0]

Early stages of a multi, you should be trying to slowly accumulate chips. Don't need to take chances with marginal hands (even when you are ahead) - just grind it out. If you can double, do it....but don't take excessive risk. Its impossible to win a multi or even make a penny in these stages, and staying alive is the single most important thing you can do.Middle stages (after first hour and a half or so) you want to start doing one of two things - busting people and doubling through. Its alot of high-stakes collisions and frankly you'll need to get lucky once or twice. Stealing becomes a play now since the blinds are valuable enough to be stolen.Late multi - if you are a big stack, be a bully and just be aware of the stack sizes you are playing against (implied odds that you may have to call). If you are a medium stack, just stay alive and play it like early stages. If you are a short - play fearless. If you are play scared you are dead - you'll be raised and set in constantly and not be able to manuever. If you are able to initiate the action, you'll control the action.Once it gets to the final table, each spot is more valuable - always be aware how far your stack can get you (if there are 10 left and 3 are under 2 BB, you should be able to slide into at least 7th without much doing - and there's substantial difference between 7th and 10th).

[amarillotg 0]

Thanks guys, i like the advice. I think i just need to switch gears more often and play fearless at times. I have become accustom to not putting my entire stack at risk until i have to. I don't lose this way but i don't win either.

[Stewy 0]

This is probably opposite of what people will tell you but I like to get in there and gamble early in the tournament. Most of the people are playing like squeezers, once the table sees you playing alot of hands you have a better chance of getting your big hand paid off. Use alot of descretion, obviously don't call a big raise with rags. I want to have the average or above average stack when the blinds get big, thats when I start playing tight and exploiting premium opportunities from desperate short stacked players. This is just the way I do it, I play totally opposite then everything I have read about tournament strategy. I find that If I do well in the first hour of the tournament I always make the money and sometimes the final table. If I play tight I always end up short stacked making desperation moves with the money just out of reach. I would much rather lose early in the tournament from a suckout or a bad read than squeezing my way half way through the tournament only to miss the money by 10-25 spots. [/img]

[Pokerghost2 0]

i think there is a point to be made in regard to strategy. Were talking about a low level tourn where the blinds move up fast right? I like to play iltra tight ultra aggressive mostly throughout and try to pick my spots to battle. Then i notice that something funny starts happening. All the loose players start getting tight. Sometimes u can pick up the blinds for a minimum raise! A real bargain after the antes have started. Keep a lookout for that part of a tourn u can really build a stack. Also remember how much of a raise people will stand for defending their blinds. Some will call the minimum w any paint but will fold to a 3.5x bb raise.

[JFarrell20 1]

start out really tight.(Don't listen to people who say play a lot early b/c the blinds are small. This makes no sense.)Wait till you win a pot, then you can loosen up a bit.Play semi-aggressive as long as you are ahead of avg. stack.Pay attention after about an hour or so, several people will be blinded away to almost nothing and you'll notice several short-stack-torturers.STEER CLEAR OF PRE-FLOP CALLS unless you've got premium hands. Let these people fizzle out.This should leave you around average with all the torturers gone. This is the part of the tourney where it turns hard. Now you are at average with probably half the field gone almost. This means that some people will have 4-6 times the average stack. You must stay aggressive here!! Don't be afraid of the bigstacks. Stay aggressive in middle stage.Win a couple big pots, and keep playing aggressive. If you make it near the top 15%, you'll notice people hanging on by threads. Be wary of when you think they'll push all in with potentially nothing. Again stay clear of these people, they could have anything.From here on in, I'd say steer clear of guys with 5 times as much as you. Pay attention really well now, as new people won't be coming in much. Play your best poker now and shoot for first. If you find yourself on the ropes, be PATIENT!!!! GIVE YOURSELF A FIGHTING chance to double up, even if the blinds are high!!!!

[Eskimo 0]

start out really tight.(Don't listen to people who say play a lot early b/c the blinds are small.  This makes no sense.)

Makes no sense? By the time you get a premium hand, the blinds are gonna be huge compared to your stack. You'll have to go all-in preflop. And theres always that chance that a weaker hand can knock you out.If you play loose early on and win some pots, then it gives you some breathing room. It makes perfect sense to play looser early on in the tourny.

[wrto4556 0]

start out really tight.(Don't listen to people who say play a lot early b/c the blinds are small.  This makes no sense.)

Makes no sense? By the time you get a premium hand, the blinds are gonna be huge compared to your stack. You'll have to go all-in preflop. And theres always that chance that a weaker hand can knock you out.If you play loose early on and win some pots, then it gives you some breathing room. It makes perfect sense to play looser early on in the tourny.

agreed....well....see alot of cheap flops but not play loose.

[Eskimo 0]

agreed....well....see alot of cheap flops but not play loose.

Exactly. My mistake, i shouldn't have used the term "play loose". What I meant was to try and see cheap flops.

[nydude 0]

i have the same problems. i make it deep into tourny's but at the latter stages i dont seem to have the chips to call raises and see flops with hands i would like to. it seems i always have to wait for a real good hand and go all in and more often than not ill be beat by a big stack with a worse hand. it s getting very frustrating.

[JFarrell20 1]

start out really tight.(Don't listen to people who say play a lot early b/c the blinds are small.  This makes no sense.)

Makes no sense? By the time you get a premium hand, the blinds are gonna be huge compared to your stack. You'll have to go all-in preflop. And theres always that chance that a weaker hand can knock you out.If you play loose early on and win some pots, then it gives you some breathing room. It makes perfect sense to play looser early on in the tourny.

First of all, eskimo... your welcome for giving you all that advice I did. A month ago I was playing the "play money" 2000 member NL tourneys and finishing top 100 1 out of 2 times. In other words, dominating. Sure it was play money but I have logged a lot of hours in these things. The bit MTT's are like a wave. You need to know what stage of the tourney's the wave crest's at, etc. Play tight early on b/c idiots will indubitably play aggressive and you should be able to nail them. Trust me. And you won't be blinded down before you get a premium hand. Are you serious?? You get dealt a pocket pair every 17 hands. This means you may only play 1.5 Big blinds before getting like a pair of 8's or equivalent. Maybe I should send out a disclaimer:My version of "tight" may be a lot looser than yours eskimo. I tend to play a lot of hands in NL, because of my ability to outplay opponents post-flop.I'm talking like 3 hands out of 10. Both blinds and maybe one other hand. A lot of people would probably say this is loose.Just remember, start out tight/ then get more aggressive, then tighten up when the short-stack torturers start pushing (unless of course you get dealt a great hand, then double up), then aggressive (stay aggressive for as long as you can). If you get short-stacked play very patiently. VERY patiently. Ride the wave man.Maybe I should stop posting on here and just read. It seems like people just pick apart everything I say? :?

[ForumMod 0]

I've always played extremely tight, ussually until the first break in these tournaments, if I get 3 premium hands in the first hour (happens one out of every four) I am always in the top 10 in chips, otherwise im ussually in the top half of the chips which is not a problem at all, once it get near the bubble if you're playing to get in top 5 you have to play aggresive on the button, yes every once in a while a blind will re-raise you and you might have to let the hand go, but make this a hefty raise, if you've got more chips than them... raise 60-70% of there stack sticking you into the hand if you've got ante's at this point. Playing to win and playing to get into the money are two seperate things, I played to make money for quite a while and it works, My last 3 MTTs I've placed 7th, 11th and somethhing like 30th (out of the money) these are all 100 - 150 player so I think thats very good results, using TJ Cloutier's strategy of Protecting chips and pushing HARD when you have it, and then I play more like Daniel, Phil or the Dane would play once blinds hit 50-100

[holman3rd 0]

Playing to win and playing to get into the money are two seperate things, I played to make money for quite a while and it works, My last 3 MTTs I've placed 7th, 11th and somethhing like 30th (out of the money) these are all 100 - 150 player so I think thats very good results, using TJ Cloutier's strategy of Protecting chips and pushing HARD when you have it, and then I play more like Daniel, Phil or the Dane would play once blinds hit 50-100

Where are you playing these? Online, B&M, and what are the buy-ins?Just curious. I'd love to find these size fields on the internet, but I usually have to go to a B&M to do that. I prefer $50-$100 buy-ins.

[JaysonWeber 0]

If you want that type of field at a 50-100 buy-in I'd suggest UltimateBet, PartyPoker or Pokerstar WPT Satelitte events.. they pull the largest crowd for those buyins. Ussually on UltimateBet Theres upwards of 50 in a 50+5... But the Satelittes if where most people are.

[holman3rd 0]

If you want that type of field at a 50-100 buy-in I'd suggest UltimateBet, PartyPoker or Pokerstar WPT Satelitte events.. they pull the largest crowd for those buyins.  Ussually on UltimateBet Theres upwards of 50 in a 50+5...  But the Satelittes if where most people are.

Thanks..I only play at PP now, but probably should check out those other sites. I've played some of the $30 buy-in MTT's at PP, but the fields are usually very large (750+), and I don't usually have the time to play them since they last so long. Right now, I usually play the $50 SNG's at PP

[Eskimo 0]

Play tight early on b/c idiots will indubitably play aggressive and you should be able to nail them.  Trust me.

But thats play money. of course they're gonna play extremely loose and aggressive, its play money.Your definition of tight is different from mine. The way you described it seems fine though. The kind of tight i was talking about is like folding KJo in early position.

[JFarrell20 1]

Yeah, I haven't played in a big real money tourney. But I believe there will still be over-aggressive players early on. They feel like they need to get off to a good start or else they're worthless. Just kick back and wait for a hand to slowplay. I'd call with KJ off in early position. Would fold it to a substantial pre-flop raise though.

[MrConceit 0]

Yeah, I haven't played in a big real money tourney.  But I believe there will still be over-aggressive players early on.  They feel like they need to get off to a good start or else they're worthless.  Just kick back and wait for a hand to slowplay.  I'd call with KJ off in early position.  Would fold it to a substantial pre-flop raise though.

There are a couple diff ways to play it in multis online. It's not like you can say playing a bit looser and/or gambling in earlier stages is WRONG. It's just more people tend to think it's better to remain tight earlier because the pot sizes aren't worth messing with because of the small blinds.And in my experience people (on average) aren't total lags in the start. Some are for sure, but not the bulk. Quite often you can see flops for pretty cheap, and then can take advantage of people playing poorly postflop. If you do choose to wait for only premiums, if you aren't fortunate you can easily see yourself struggling by first break or 90 mins in. The PP systems for blinds goes up pretty fast, especially in buyins for less than Supers and whatnot. Those go up a bit slower.Malmuth put it something to the effect of, gambling early so you don't have to gamble later. If you can accumilate some chips early then you can play solid and not have to gamble later when it's more important.But again, this is only one way to play. Being tight early is a fine strategy too. Just don't tell me it's the only way to play it. It's harder to outplay people postflop later in a way, because it so often becomes shove-fests when the blinds get larger.My reason to gamble early in 20 or 30 buyins is because if I don't make it to the final table the payout is really not worth the amount of time I've spent. So I'd rather either get a solid amount of chips or bust in the first 60-90 mins. If I bust out and win like 3x my buyin (or bust out on the bubble) it took me forever to win maybe 50 bucks. Everybody has their reason to be playing. For some it's just to get ITM and they're estatic, for some it's just to gain experience. But for me I need to try for a solid score if I'm going to spend 4-5 hours on a large amount of people MTT.

[JFarrell20 1]

Thank you for proving my point.You just said you'd rather bust out early (60-90 mins.) if you knew you weren't gonna make it in the money. Nothing wrong with this. There are several great players who play like this. This is why I'm telling this guy to play tight early, b/c players like you will try to "gamble early", or bust out. This gentleman can take advantage of players like you.

[holman3rd 0]

Thank you for proving my point.You just said you'd rather bust out early (60-90 mins.) if you knew you weren't gonna make it in the money.  Nothing wrong with this.  There are several great players who play like this.  This is why I'm telling this guy to play tight early, b/c players like you will try to "gamble early", or bust out.  This gentleman can take advantage of players like you.

First, I prefer to play tight early. However, very skilled players that play loose and aggressive early aren't necessarily going to be taken advantage of. If they sense that the table is playing tight, they are correct in playing aggressively, and it is the tight players that are being taken advantage of. The skilled aggressors know when to back off in the face of strength from a "tight" player. I really don't think either style is right or wrong, just different, and they can play off each other. Like I said, I prefer to play tight, as I'm just not comfortable enough with my game to play "Gus" style early in a tourney. However, if rebuys are allowed, I'll definitely loosen up and dial up my aggression.As with just about everything in poker, there are no black and white answers here. Skilled players will adjust to the texture of their table. If it's tight, they loosen up a bit; if it's loose, they tighten up a bit. You have to be flexible.All that said, imo the best approach for beginners is to stick to playing tight early. (Hey, another argument for separate forums...Sorry, I'm shamelessly self-promoting my idea).

[rusmac31 0]

I've played quite a few PP $22 and $33 multi table tourny's (usually 400+ people).There is not a perfect strategy, alot of it depends on the table you are at.For example, if I'm at a table with there is minimal pre-flop raising, I'll play loose pre-flop (meaning I want to see cheap flops with multiple players, it does not mean calling pre-flop raises with marginal hands) and if I hit the flop hard, I'm ultra aggressive.Or, if I'm at a table where you must pay 4x the big blind to see the flop, I'll play ultra tight and aggressive pre-flop.Generally, I agree with the posters above the early on you want to survive but you need to recognize the type of table you are at.Also, to JFarrell, play money tournaments and games are nothing like real money games. I've played my share of play money games and the play is horrible.Not trying to be sarcastic, but I'd reccomend actually playing in real money MTT tournaments (you mentioned you haven't played in any), gain experience, see what works and what doesn't, and then share your experiences in the forum.

[JFarrell20 1]

I'm not going to play MTT until I build my bankroll up. You need to have a large bankroll even for the 10 dollar SNGs. I've played about 4 10 dollar SNG's and am up like 8 bucks. But I'm sticking with limit ring games until I build up a bankroll. And no thanks... I won't stoop down to play the $5 MTT's or SNG's. 20% tax??!?! WOW!!!!!!!!!It's either 5+1 or 10+1... hmmmmmmmm. I'll build my roll up and play the 10+1's.The main thing to remember with MTT's (play money or real) is that your play will fluctuate like a wave. Tight to loose, to tight, back to aggressive all the way in! or out..

[MrConceit 0]

Thank you for proving my point.You just said you'd rather bust out early (60-90 mins.) if you knew you weren't gonna make it in the money.Nothing wrong with this. There are several great players who play like this.This is why I'm telling this guy to play tight early, b/c players like you will try to "gamble early", or bust out. This gentleman can take advantage of players like you.

That's close, but not quite what I said. Getting (barely) in the money means basically nothing to me in 20s and 30s. Like I'd always play aggressive on bubble when others are trying to squeak into the money. You have to get to the final table to really mean anything in those imo. I don't try just for first, but I try for a solid cash. Anywhere between final table or top 3 (top3 being the huge payout percentages). I mean sure if you get 3 or 4x that's great. But it's still not much of a payout. You could have made more than that by playing multiple SnGs in the same amount of time.But you're quite right in that people playing tight should try to take advantage of those like me and/or just bad loose players. Like, I'm quite willing to back down if I bluff and get played back at. Playing somewhat loose/aggressive and gambling up doesn't mean BAD! Sorry I feel like I have to defend myself and that's silly. You're post is quite correct.

I'm not going to play MTT until I build my bankroll up.  You need to have a large bankroll even for the 10 dollar SNGs.  I've played about 4 10 dollar SNG's and am up like 8 bucks.  But I'm sticking with limit ring games until I build up a bankroll.  And no thanks... I won't stoop down to play the $5 MTT's or SNG's.  20% tax??!?! WOW!!!!!!!!!It's either 5+1 or 10+1... hmmmmmmmm.  I'll build my roll up and play the 10+1's.The main thing to remember with MTT's (play money or real) is that your play will fluctuate like a wave.  Tight to loose, to tight, back to aggressive all the way in! or out..

I fully agree with you on this. MTT can be utter death to your bankroll when you're starting out. They're so not worth your time (if you're on a limited roll, which most of us would be). They can be so long between cashes. And also 5s on party are horrible because of the rake, as you said.