correct fold preflop?? lhe

[CodyHartman 0]

.50/1.00 limit 40% to flop average pot is around $6.00I'm UTG with 77. I limp, 2 folds, MP limps, MP+1 2 bets, MP+2 3 bets, 2 more folds, then back to me.So I am faced with cold calling 2 bets in EP, and I am most likely facing a cap. But, we have 7 small bets in the pot before I call. Add the possible cap and calls by Mp+1 and MP+2 (assuming MP folds) there is 13 small bets.I figure I am probably facing an overpair b/c this table doesnt usually 3 bet preflop.What do you think?EDIT: Sorry I didnt noice Strategy is now general, and my post needed to be in the Hold Em forum in strategy. Thank you mod for moving it w/o a banning or flaming. (sw)

[BetItAll33 0]

I fold here. If you have the best hand, it's unlikely to hold up. If you don't have the best hand, you're drawing nearly dead. Not to mention, if you don't hit a set this will be nearly impossible to play post flop. If they're maniacs, you can find a better spot to bust them.

[Dubey 1,035]

I'm not sure. you have MP, who may well call, meaning we'll potentially have 4 way capped action preflop. Considering you are probably up against overpairs, the implied odds of flopping a set here may warrant a call, but I'm not sure.

[BetItAll33 0]

put it this way, when you do hit a set, can you make 14BB off of it? If you can't, then you probably can't call profitably here since you'll be folding almost every other time.

[CodyHartman 0]

I'm not sure. you have MP, who may well call, meaning we'll potentially have 4 way capped action preflop. Considering you are probably up against overpairs, the implied odds of flopping a set here may warrant a call, but I'm not sure.

Thank you for restating the question I am looking to have answered. :wink:

[Petoria 0]

Your goal with this hand is to flop a set, bc it is a flop or drop hand. Position here isn't critical if you plan to fold if you miss. With a potentially 4 way flop, I definitely like calling. Folding is not out of the question though.

[Dubey 1,035]

put it this way, when you do hit a set, can you make 14BB off of it? If you can't, then you probably can't call profitably here since you'll be folding almost every other time.

actually, you only need to make 6 BB when you flop a set to make this call profitable. 10 BB if it ends up being capped.you're numbers were calculated, I assume, by the odds of calling 4-cold, which is not the case here.

[akishore 0]

this is a very easy call...aseem

[akishore 0]

If you don't have the best hand, you're drawing nearly dead.

i think an approximately 8-to-1 chance of flopping a set is a little better than drawing dead. you know, just a little.

Not to mention, if you don't hit a set this will be nearly impossible to play post flop.

not really.low/mid pocket pairs have a huge postflop strategic advantage of information. you either know that you're way ahead, or you know that you're way behind.that means that you're almost always either flopping a set and pushing hard, or missing and check/folding. there are exceptions where undercards land, etc.aseem

[BetItAll33 0]

put it this way, when you do hit a set, can you make 14BB off of it? If you can't, then you probably can't call profitably here since you'll be folding almost every other time.

actually, you only need to make 6 BB when you flop a set to make this call profitable. 10 BB if it ends up being capped.you're numbers were calculated, I assume, by the odds of calling 4-cold, which is not the case here.

You're right, I quickly based my assumption on the fact that you're losing 4 small bets, 7 out of 8 times.

[akishore 0]

put it this way, when you do hit a set, can you make 14BB off of it? If you can't, then you probably can't call profitably here since you'll be folding almost every other time.

that's wrong.you're getting 8-to-2 on an immediate call. assuming the second limper also calls and the raiser calls, you're getting 11-to-2, or 5.5-to-1 on 1 BB. this means you only need to make up like 3 BB to show a profit. you're going to have a way bigger overlay when you hit a set.if you can confidently predict that it'll get capped, you're usually looking at 14-to-3 effective and sometimes 11-to-3 effective (if the second limper folds to two cold). either way, that's about 4ish-to-1 for 1.5 BB, so you'll need to make up just 6 BB by showdown or so. again, you're usually going to have a way bigger overlay when you hit a set.this is an extremely easy call, and it's not close. folding is leaving money on the table.of course, i also assume that you play well postflop. don't know if this is the case for OP, and that's not trying to sound arrogant or harsh or cocky.aseem

[BetItAll33 0]

If you don't have the best hand, you're drawing nearly dead.

i think an approximately 8-to-1 chance of flopping a set is a little better than drawing dead. you know, just a little.Well, drawing dead would be zero outs. In this case you have two. So, yeah, it is a little better. That's why I said "nearly". Clearly, you don't have a good chance of winning here and would be calling on the basis of implied odds when you hit a set.

Not to mention, if you don't hit a set this will be nearly impossible to play post flop.

translation: If you don't hit a set, it will be nearly impossible to continue post flop. Sorry, I was unclear. I didn't mean that there would be tough decisions.not really.low/mid pocket pairs have a huge postflop strategic advantage of information. you either know that you're way ahead, or you know that you're way behind.that means that you're almost always either flopping a set and pushing hard, or missing and check/folding. there are exceptions where undercards land, etc.aseem

[akishore 0]

If you don't have the best hand' date=' you're drawing nearly dead.[/quote']i think an approximately 8-to-1 chance of flopping a set is a little better than drawing dead. you know' date=' just a little.Well' date=' drawing dead would be zero outs. In this case you have two. So, yeah, it is a little better. That's why I said "nearly". Clearly, you don't have a good chance of winning here and would be calling on the basis of implied odds when you hit a set. [/color']two outs with three cards to come is not nearly drawing dead.as for the "you'd be calling on the basis of implied odds only", that's what ALL preflop play is essentially about.low/mid pocket pairs are huge moneymaking hands when played for set value when good implied odds are present. in a raised multiway pots, these implied odds are through the roof, and you can be guaranteed to make SEVERAL big bets in addition to what you need to break even.folding is leaving a huge amount of money at the table. it's flat-out wrong, IMHO, and it's not close in the least bit.aseem

[CodyHartman 0]

if you can confidently predict that it'll get capped, you're usually looking at 14-to-3 effective and sometimes 11-to-3 effective (if the second limper folds to two cold). either way, that's about 4ish-to-1 for 1.5 BB, so you'll need to make up just 6 BB by showdown or so. again, you're usually going to have a way bigger overlay when you hit a set.this is an extremely easy call, and it's not close. folding is leaving money on the table.of course, i also assume that you play well postflop. don't know if this is the case for OP, and that's not trying to sound arrogant or harsh or censored.aseem

I guess my whole concern was the fact I know I am drawing to 2 cards in the deck, and not wanting to cold call with that info. The other problem I had was how I have been playin mostly NL lately, which as we know is a different mindset.So basically it is +EV to call the 2 bets cold, even assuming I know it will probably get capped. That is the what I really needed to know.This is a flop or fold hand for me usually, so post flop play in this case, is realtivly simple in my mind.

[WonderfulSplash 0]

put it this way, when you do hit a set, can you make 14BB off of it? If you can't, then you probably can't call profitably here since you'll be folding almost every other time.

that's wrong.you're getting 8-to-2 on an immediate call. assuming the second limper also calls and the raiser calls, you're getting 11-to-2, or 5.5-to-1 on 1 BB. this means you only need to make up like 3 BB to show a profit. you're going to have a way bigger overlay when you hit a set.if you can confidently predict that it'll get capped, you're usually looking at 14-to-3 effective and sometimes 11-to-3 effective (if the second limper folds to two cold). either way, that's about 4ish-to-1 for 1.5 BB, so you'll need to make up just 6 BB by showdown or so. again, you're usually going to have a way bigger overlay when you hit a set.this is an extremely easy call, and it's not close. folding is leaving money on the table.of course, i also assume that you play well postflop. don't know if this is the case for OP, and that's not trying to sound arrogant or harsh or censored.aseem

Arrogant, harsh, censored. (sw)I completely agree with Aseem here, this is a very easy call. When you hit a set you are going to get enough action to justify this call. Folding is giving up a ton of value.

[CodyHartman 0]

I should post the results of the hand, not like they should matter. I would have flopped a set and taken down a pot that was at 12BB w/o me in it. One player (mp +1) had AA and MP had Q9 soooted (this guy was a maniac, but I was multiing, had only been at the table for 10 mins and hadnt noticed). Board ended up as Q7xx9. Who knows how big it could have gotten.After the flop though I immediatly wondered if I played it right or not, b/c I wass obviously pissed about not playing, and I was trying to justify my fold. Thanks guys for the discussion.

[BetItAll33 0]

Well, I probably do leave some money on the table in these situations. I think that I subconsiously make the low-variance play sometimes rather than calling in a capped pot and folding 7/8 times. Calling is probably +EV.The whole semantics debate over drawing dead or "nearly" drawing dead is silly. The fact is, you have a 1/8 shot of hitting a set and you expect to win when you do and lose otherwise.

of course, i also assume that you play well postflop

this doesn't matter much since:

you're almost always either flopping a set and pushing hard, or missing and check/folding

[screech 0]

Assuming everyone calls, you are getting 5:1 immediate odds on the flop call. You are 7.5:1 to hit a set. Given all the PF action, your implied odds more than enough to make this call profitable. This is straight out of SSHE. "You should be more inclined to call two back to you cold with a hand like 88 than AJo." What this means is that if there are enough other people already in the pot that you can count on getting the right PF odds to hit your set, go ahead and call. You should usually call with any PP getting 5:1 preflop.

[CodyHartman 0]

Assuming everyone calls, you are getting 5:1 immediate odds on the flop call. You are 7.5:1 to hit a set. Given all the PF action, your implied odds more than enough to make this call profitable. This is straight out of SSHE. "You should be more inclined to call two back to you cold with a hand like 88 than AJo." What this means is that if there are enough other people already in the pot that you can count on getting the right PF odds to hit your set, go ahead and call. You should usually call with any PP getting 5:1 preflop.

Its funny that you post that excerpt b/c after the hand and this discussion I pulled out SSHE and read that.Me thinks I need reread some parts. :wink: :wink: :wink:

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Anybody else raise this under the gun?Low limit online.

[akishore 0]

Anybody else raise this under the gun?Low limit online.

nah.playing it for set value earns you so much more than playing it aggressively preflop.aseem

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Anybody else raise this under the gun?Low limit online.

nah.playing it for set value earns you so much more than playing it aggressively preflop.aseem

Yeah... I wasn't sure. Worth a thought though. I like limping better. I've been playing a lot more no limit lately... and the game starts off fishy and gets cut-throat by 2 in the morning. People play 77-99 very interestingly preflop, sometimes in funky positions.

[CodyHartman 0]

Anybody else raise this under the gun?Low limit online.

nah.playing it for set value earns you so much more than playing it aggressively preflop.aseem

Yeah this was a question I thought might get answered. When noone brought it up I assumed the limp UTG was fine. Had I raised UTG then calling the cap would of been automatic. (shrug)I think its -EV to raise UTG with any pair up to 99 preflop.

[dimseven 0]

this is a very easy call...aseem

Not as much as You make it sound... he's getting 5:1 IF the other limper calls 2 more too.Also there's a chance it gets capped without the other limper in the pot, and You'd have to put in 3 more for 10, which ~ 3.33:1.Oops, I forgot to add the big blind in there. Ok 5.5:1 IF other limper calls, 4.5:1 IF he doesn't, 3.67:1 rough estimate if it gets capped minus the other limper.

[akishore 0]

this is a very easy call...aseem

Not as much as You make it sound... he's getting 5:1 IF the other limper calls 2 more too.Also there's a chance it gets capped without the other limper in the pot, and You'd have to put in 3 more for 10, which ~ 3.33:1.Oops, I forgot to add the big blind in there. Ok 5.5:1 IF other limper calls, 4.5:1 IF he doesn't, 3.67:1 rough estimate if it gets capped minus the other limper.

i think it is... you usually have a relatively big overlay in implied odds when you do flop a set. it's really genuinely pretty hard to NOT make up enough bets in this multiway raised pot when you flop a set. again, i assume that people play reasonably postflop.aseem