weak fold?

[Kaedin 0]

Ahoy!Yesterday I was playing in the $2pm $5.50 MTT on ultimatebet, when this hand came up. My friend said he thought it was a weak fold, and at the time I felt it was a fold of Hellmuthian ™ proportions! So, whats your take:Blinds are 400/800 with 125 antes. I'm sitting on the button. UTG is a good player (from my estimation) and has me slightly covered at this point. I have about 25000 in front of me. We're in the money at this point, but as with most MTTs, the real money is in the top ten. So UTG raises to 2500, 1/10th of my stack, and its folded to me. I look down and see pocket Jacks. Normally I'd atleast call here, but something was sending warning bells off. For reasons Im about to go into, I folded preflop. Here are my reasons, am I nuts:1) Ive seen him raise pf before, especially from utg, and this raise just really alarmed me. I know that usually larger bets mean they dont want action, but I got a different feeling from this raise.2) From this raise, and my read on him, I was only able to credit him with 4 hands: AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Best case scenario, if my read is correct, I was at best a coinflip favorite.3) If no overcards came on the flop, I could easily go broke here, in a situation where my gut tells me to fold fold fold, preflop.4) I would be reducing jacks to a hand like 77 or 22(no set, no bet), and if I had 77 or 22 in this situation, I fold in a heart beat.So, what do you guys think? Weak sauce? Good lay? I suck and Dan Druff is my in-the-closet lover?

[zimmer4141 0]

I'm between option 1 and 3 on this one. (sw) if you didn't knowI think you have to reraise here, especially if he is a good player, not a rock. If he was very tight, I would consider folding pf here. I would probably reraise to around 7000 here. If he came back OTT, I would probably have to fold it. I think your play is very weak here, and I would favor reraising over calling, because you have no clue where you are if you call. Reraise pf.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I know that usually larger bets mean they dont want action, but I got a different feeling from this raise.AHHH, if you want to fold this, that's fine, but please don't say "you got a feeling" when you are playing online poker. Maybe that "feeling" you got was that a UTG raise usually means a strong hand.And BTW, this isn't a large bet. It's a little over 3x the bb. With the entire table also anteing up as well, this raise isn't even close to being considered big.

[Kaedin 0]

sorry, i left out some information (or rather gave incomplete information).What I meant by large bet was 'large bet by his standards'. Out of the 6 or 7 tables I was at, I was at this table the longest, and played with this particular person the most (over an hour at this table, and then again at the final table). His normal raises, including UTG raises, were never of this size.And from my read on him, I had a funny feeling about this raise, from THIS person. No, I don't 'feel' the cards (although, I pretty much always feel my jacks are beat! sw)

[JimmyWellington 1]

I know that usually larger bets mean they dont want action, but I got a different feeling from this raise.AHHH, if you want to fold this, that's fine, but please don't say "you got a feeling" when you are playing online poker. Maybe that "feeling" you got was that a UTG raise usually means a strong hand.

Also, when playing online, is it even possible to "look down" at your cards. Is your monitor on your lap? Usually when I'm playing online, I have trouble following the action without looking at my cards, since they're, ya know, right there.Also, for this fold to be "Hellmuthian", it would have had to be KK ;)I don't see how you can fold this preflop, especially online.

[JimmyWellington 1]

sorry, i left out some information (or rather gave incomplete information).What I meant by large bet was 'large bet by his standards'. Out of the 6 or 7 tables I was at, I was at this table the longest, and played with this particular person the most (over an hour at this table, and then again at the final table). His normal raises, including UTG raises, were never of this size.And from my read on him, I had a funny feeling about this raise, from THIS person. No, I don't 'feel' the cards (although, I pretty much always feel my jacks are beat! sw)

Sorry, didn't read this before. What sizes were his normal raises? Cause this is a pretty standard raise.

[onlymyBgame 0]

that is one of the worst folds i hav e ever seen.no one has that small of a hand range for raising at higher blinds levels of mtts with antes when that person has a healthy stack. if you're really that worried that he could have a stronger hand reraise him to 9000 and put him to the test. he'll probably fold and if he pushes you can dump it.if he's a decent player, he'll be trying to frequently blind steal with garbage. especially if he notices that someone like you is folding to every single raise he makes.also, why are you assuming that his larger raise means a better hand? most low limit players have a fairly predictable pattern of raising less if they have a monster and more if they have a weaker hand.

[onlymyBgame 0]

I know that usually larger bets mean they dont want action, but I got a different feeling from this raise.AHHH, if you want to fold this, that's fine, but please don't say "you got a feeling" when you are playing online poker. Maybe that "feeling" you got was that a UTG raise usually means a strong hand.And BTW, this isn't a large bet. It's a little over 3x the bb. With the entire table also anteing up as well, this raise isn't even close to being considered big.

i dont know about you guys, but next to the cutoff and the button, the most frequent place im raising from with a weak hand is utg. people always give you credit for a monster and you steal an inordinate amount of blinds.

[Kaedin 0]

I guess online reads and instincts are meaningless, from what Im reading here. The guy showed aces after it was folded around. I guess I'm a weak player, then. I was happy with my performance all around in that tourny (5th place overall). If I had raised to 7000 preflop, and he just flat called, I sitll don't know where I am. And if I raise to 7000 preflop, and he now goes all in, I'm getting 2-1 on my money with pocket jacks, and 1/3 of my stack already in the pot.I obviously don't fold jacks (or any pocket pair) to every preflop raise, my instincts just, i dunno, made me feel behind here.(For those doubting that he showed aces, I showed two people the hand history, one of whom posts here, ctrlfrk, i can have him verify, etc...)

[copernicus 0]

I guess online reads and instincts are meaningless, from what Im reading here.  The guy showed aces after it was folded around. )

The most reliable "reads" online or live on most players is their betting patterns, and you seem to have had enough experience against UTG to get a valid read. Before I saw that he showed As my answer was fold if thats your read. As you note, Js are a dangerous hand that can go for a heavy loss to overpairs when rags flop, and unable to play strongly when overcards flop. I don't think it was a weak fold at all under the circumstances.

[JimmyWellington 1]

I guess online reads and instincts are meaningless, from what Im reading here. The guy showed aces after it was folded around. I guess I'm a weak player, then. I was happy with my performance all around in that tourny (5th place overall).

Ah, I see now.You wanted to see everyone tell you what a horrible fold it was, then say "but he had Aces! Aces I tell you!"Unfortunately the range of hands he would make this move with make your fold wrong. Congrats on this one time though.

[Kaedin 0]

I guess online reads and instincts are meaningless, from what Im reading here. The guy showed aces after it was folded around. I guess I'm a weak player, then. I was happy with my performance all around in that tourny (5th place overall).

Ah, I see now.You wanted to see everyone tell you what a horrible fold it was, then say "but he had Aces! Aces I tell you!"Unfortunately the range of hands he would make this move with make your fold wrong. Congrats on this one time though.

actually, dumbass, i wanted people's opinions. Much like people ask opinions around here on how to play hands, and then after some opinions are posted, they post the results.I really wondered how people viewed the play, as a friend of mine, and someone I feel is very good at poker, said he felt it was weak. Im probably going to make the same play every day of the week and twice on sunday if my read tells me to do so, instead of potentially going broke with a hand that, while pretty preflop, is pretty easily ruined postflop.

[JimmyWellington 1]

I guess online reads and instincts are meaningless, from what Im reading here. The guy showed aces after it was folded around. I guess I'm a weak player, then. I was happy with my performance all around in that tourny (5th place overall).

Ah, I see now.You wanted to see everyone tell you what a horrible fold it was, then say "but he had Aces! Aces I tell you!"Unfortunately the range of hands he would make this move with make your fold wrong. Congrats on this one time though.

actually, dumbass, i wanted people's opinions. Much like people ask opinions around here on how to play hands, and then after some opinions are posted, they post the results.I really wondered how people viewed the play, as a friend of mine, and someone I feel is very good at poker, said he felt it was weak. Im probably going to make the same play every day of the week and twice on sunday if my read tells me to do so, instead of potentially going broke with a hand that, while pretty preflop, is pretty easily ruined postflop.

Riiiight, you keep on telling yourself that, boss

[WonderfulSplash 0]

I guess online reads and instincts are meaningless, from what Im reading here.  The guy showed aces after it was folded around.  I guess I'm a weak player, then.  I was happy with my performance all around in that tourny (5th place overall).  

Ah, I see now.You wanted to see everyone tell you what a horrible fold it was, then say "but he had Aces! Aces I tell you!"Unfortunately the range of hands he would make this move with make your fold wrong. Congrats on this one time though.

actually, dumbass, i wanted people's opinions. Much like people ask opinions around here on how to play hands, and then after some opinions are posted, they post the results.I really wondered how people viewed the play, as a friend of mine, and someone I feel is very good at poker, said he felt it was weak. Im probably going to make the same play every day of the week and twice on sunday if my read tells me to do so, instead of potentially going broke with a hand that, while pretty preflop, is pretty easily ruined postflop.

You wanted people's opinions, then when they told you that you were wrong, you said you would play it the same anyway. Don't post if your not really looking for advice.

[Kaedin 0]

I really am looking for opinions. No where in my post did I say 'I need you to hold my hand through poker'. I made a play, I was perfectly happy with my play (I said as much in my first post, if you didnt see that, please get glasses and/or reading lessons). And, the majority of people here agreed with my friend. Thats really what I was wondering. If I wanted to brag, if I wanted to say 'haha look at this lay down', I think that I have the maturity and balls to do so, I don't need to be a little keyboard tough guy jerk off (read: wonderfulspash and jimmywellington) and get my rocks off online by going haha, it was aces, u lose irl lolz.Seriously, some of you must have security issues in your real life if you cant handle someone wanting opinions, and then being okay that his opinions differ from yours. Maybe you can google search your manhood.(for reference, since some of you seem to be on a 2nd grade reader, multiple times I said "What was your take", and also, "I was happy with this move, here are my reasons", never did I say, 'gee, I was so lost and confused, what should I have done, please, help!")PS - if jimmywellington doesn't see how he comes off as a complete and utter ass clown, maybe he shouldnt hang out with 15 years olds all day. (Talking to people like they've just read a how-to book by Danny Nguyen is sorta rude)

[JimmyWellington 1]

OK, so my first post was joking around, "look down at..." That was a joke. If you can't take a joke, grow some thicker skin.Then, you asked a question. You gave your reasoning. I can see what you are thinking there. I don't think it's right however. Apparantly you and I differ on that. However...the vast majority of the people on here seemed to agree that it was a weak play.Then....After everyone tells you how weak it was, you bring out the fact that this time you were right. It happens all the time. I was just poking a little fun. Once again, if you can't take it, too bad. You'll get it a lot worse on here.If you're laying this down preflop for a standard raise that is 1/10 of your stack, well...you keep on doing that. Now go to the next section of "Flaming for Dummies" and find a response.

[WonderfulSplash 0]

I really am looking for opinions. No where in my post did I say 'I need you to hold my hand through poker'. I made a play, I was perfectly happy with my play (I said as much in my first post, if you didnt see that, please get glasses and/or reading lessons). And, the majority of people here agreed with my friend. Thats really what I was wondering. If I wanted to brag, if I wanted to say 'haha look at this lay down', I think that I have the maturity and balls to do so, I don't need to be a little keyboard tough guy jerk off (read: wonderfulspash and jimmywellington) and get my rocks off online by going haha, it was aces, u lose irl lolz.Seriously, some of you must have security issues in your real life if you cant handle someone wanting opinions, and then being okay that his opinions differ from yours. Maybe you can google search your manhood.(for reference, since some of you seem to be on a 2nd grade reader, multiple times I said "What was your take", and also, "I was happy with this move, here are my reasons", never did I say, 'gee, I was so lost and confused, what should I have done, please, help!")PS - if jimmywellington doesn't see how he comes off as a complete and utter ass clown, maybe he shouldnt hang out with 15 years olds all day. (Talking to people like they've just read a how-to book by Danny Nguyen is sorta rude)

How exactly was I being rude? It was clear that folding was the wrong play, but you said you would still do it anyway. It looked like you didn't really want advice on how to play the hand, since you ignored everyone else's opinions. I just think you should post hands with a more open-mind, not an "am right, everyone else is wrong" mentality..