dealer error at casino

[bweller` 0]

So i was at trump casino in indiana the other night playing 3/6 limit. It was on a kill pot so the pot size was pretty large. 2 guys left in the hand to see the river. On the river comes a 3rd dimond. first guy bets. The second guy says, hey i think u accidentally burt 2 cards there by mistake. The dealer defends himself saying everything was correct. the second guy then asks the dealer to count the burn cards under the pot. there were 4 burn cards. the dealer stops play and calls the floor guy over. The floor guy instructs the dealer to remove the river card and place the correct river card in its place. well guy number 1 would have hit is flush with the origional card there. he goes crazy throws his card, throws his chips screaming, yelling at everyone saying thats not right, the first card should have stayed there. security came over to escort the guy out. security never went far from our table cause everyone kept arguing over the situation and what should have happened. this fat guy kept swearing at all the dealers saying they should go back to working at burger king.i was just wondering what you guys think of the situation. should the origional card have stayed, or should the correct river replace it? anyone else come across a situation like this?

[case ace 0]

So i was at trump casino in indiana the other night playing 3/6 limit. It was on a kill pot so the pot size was pretty large. 2 guys left in the hand to see the river. On the river comes a 3rd dimond. first guy bets. The second guy says, hey i think u accidentally burt 2 cards there by mistake. The dealer defends himself saying everything was correct. the second guy then asks the dealer to count the burn cards under the pot. there were 4 burn cards. the dealer stops play and calls the floor guy over. The floor guy instructs the dealer to remove the river card and place the correct river card in its place. well guy number 1 would have hit is flush with the origional card there. he goes crazy throws his card, throws his chips screaming, yelling at everyone saying thats not right, the first card should have stayed there. security came over to escort the guy out. security never went far from our table cause everyone kept arguing over the situation and what should have happened. this fat guy kept swearing at all the dealers saying they should go back to working at burger king.i was just wondering what you guys think of the situation. should the origional card have stayed, or should the correct river replace it? anyone else come across a situation like this?

I have no idea what the real ruling is... but i'd fgiure the second card should play. However, the fact that the first guy ALREADY bet, really muddys the waters, and my decision.

[ajs510 122]

Regardless of what anyone here thinks, the floor person has the final say on what's what at a B&M. Dealer mistakes happen, they're human just like everyone here (well, almost everyone here...)Anyone who acted after the wrong river card was placed on the table should have received their bets back before the correct river was put in play though, if that wasn't done then the floor screwed up. Even so, they have the final say.

[Governator 54]

Oh man that would suck ass.

[....Ian.... 0]

not sure if this is the real ruling but if you could find the last 2 burns....then RESHUFFLE the whol deck and burn and turn

[ajs510 122]

Gov, every time I see a new avatar I want to throttle you. I mean, I think you're a cool guy, but seeing a self-taken picture of DN's personal Golden Tee machine gives me murderous intentions. Does that make me a bad person?s/w, in case you were wondering.

[DB10-2 0]

if someone bets that card,that's the card.that's how i'd do it, anyway.

[case ace 0]

Regardless of what anyone here thinks, the floor person has the final say on what's what at a B&M. Dealer mistakes happen, they're human just like everyone here (well, almost everyone here...)Anyone who acted after the wrong river card was placed on the table should have received their bets back before the correct river was put in play though, if that wasn't done then the floor screwed up. Even so, they have the final say.

i'll agree with that. I might even propose a mis deal even though that's not practical, here's why:If the diamond hits and i bet, the second guy complains, i know i win the pot.for the second card if the diamond now doesn't fall and i complain, even if i don't complain and i don't bet, the other guy bets and i fold-- The pot is basically awarded to the other guy. No matter what, the pot is awarded because of a dealer error. Unfair. Therefore i believe that all bets should be given back(which is basically impossible in kill pot/game) or you should keep the 1st card because since he didn't complain before the guy bet. Although the 2nd card should obvioulsy play, you can't call it after a bet. It's like Vinny Vihn calling the fbomb penalty3 hands later cause it helps him. Legal, but it should be to late IMO.

[yeffy 0]

I would have thought that if the error was easily fixable and the natural river was identifiable then the real card should be put out and acted on. This may be some peoples ruling and would have been mine (I work floor at an nyc club). However apparently, I would be wrong. Here is an excerpt from "Robert's Rules of Poker". Bob Ciaffone is one of the foremost experts on rules.

If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.

[Adaon 0]

not sure if this is the real ruling but if you could find the last 2 burns....then RESHUFFLE the whol deck and burn and turn

I think you are right, Paul Phillips talked about this about a month ago where there was a misdealt flop. If I recall correctly, the ruling was to take back the flop and burned cards, shuffle and redeal the flop.

[na3r0k 0]

I think a lot has to do with if there was any betting on the river as well. If there wasn't any bets made then they should correct the eroor and put the right card in. Otherwise just toss the chips back and redeal or something.

[yeffy 0]

not sure if this is the real ruling but if you could find the last 2 burns....then RESHUFFLE the whol deck and burn and turn

I think you are right, Paul Phillips talked about this about a month ago where there was a misdealt flop. If I recall correctly, the ruling was to take back the flop and burned cards, shuffle and redeal the flop.

This is if a flop turn or river is brought out too early before action has been completed. In this case it was just a card fumble so there is no reason to shuffle the stub. I think there are only two choices, leave the card, or replace it with the natural river (if it is identfiable). Most rule books are based on Robert's Rules so if action has been taken, the card stands, if no action has been taken then the proper card is put out.

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

In this situation, the guy had his hand telegraphed because of the dealer error. Obviously the floor persons decision takes precedent, but Roberts Rules would definatly seem to be the fair way to settle this.

[GWCGWC 83]

I would have thought that if the error was easily fixable and the natural river was identifiable then the real card should be put out and acted on. This may be some peoples ruling and would have been mine (I work floor at an nyc club). However apparently, I would be wrong. Here is an excerpt from "Robert's Rules of Poker". Bob Ciaffone is one of the foremost experts on rules.

If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.

I agree w/ Bob Ciaffone here. It's all about action. Once a bet is out, the river card plays. If there is no action and the mistake can be corrected with the accurate river card, then that's what should be done.Once a mistake is made, someone's not gonna be happy. The player that threw the cards and chips and had to have security escort him out should be banned from that card room for one month or longer. Totally unacceptable, and it shows zero class.

[BetItAll33 0]

I actually had the exact same thing happen to me at the local casino. The floor was called and the misdealt river card was put back into the deck, reshuffled, and redealt.Of course, it was a different suit and one guy starts swearing and leaves. I know the pokerroom manager and he said this is standard procedure.

[Adaon 0]

This is if a flop turn or river is brought out too early before action has been completed. In this case it was just a card fumble so there is no reason to shuffle the stub. I think there are only two choices, leave the card, or replace it with the natural river (if it is identfiable). Most rule books are based on Robert's Rules so if action has been taken, the card stands, if no action has been taken then the proper card is put out.

http://extempore.livejournal.com/101645.htmlWhile not exactly the same, it was still a question of an error with the "burning" of cards. The italics are Phillips quoting someone else.

why couldn't the first card just be withdrawn and a new third card dealt?In what manner do you imagine that's better than what they did? Whatever you're about to say, bite your tongue!Forgetting to burn the top card only affects that one card; the other two would've come up anyway.The point of rulings is not to approximate any (wholly illusory) theories about what "would have" happened. The point of rulings is to remedy the situation in the fairest way possible.

[JTPHS 0]

"i'm sorry, my mistake, 3 of diamonds exposed, this is the river..." bets go back, and betting starts again...

[RolledUp 0]

this fat guy kept swearing at all the dealers saying they should go back to working at burger king. I think the fat guy should stay away from Burger King, especially if he knows the workers by face...And the first card should play...

[Nikki_N 17]

I was there from Monday night until Tuesday afternoon. I wonder if I saw you?

[Nikki_N 17]

Regardless of what anyone here thinks, the floor person has the final say on what's what at a B&M. Dealer mistakes happen, they're human just like everyone here (well, almost everyone here...)Anyone who acted after the wrong river card was placed on the table should have received their bets back before the correct river was put in play though, if that wasn't done then the floor screwed up. Even so, they have the final say.

I agree. It still sucks for the guy on the draw. Now everyone knows he needs a diamond for the flush. Accidents happen. It's cards and while there is money at stake, that is no excuse for bad behavior.

[yeffy 0]

"i'm sorry, my mistake, 3 of diamonds exposed, this is the river..."  bets go back, and betting starts again...

Heck no. Dealers deal cards, they do not make decisions, return bets, reshuffle cards, etc. major no-no. Their only proper reaction is to call the floor.The problem with replacing that card is you have disadvantaged the bettor in a huge way. He is not prtected now and has released a massive ammount of information. The "wrong" card coming off of the deck has little influence on the actual game. The 2nd burn could easily have been the 1st burn and the river could have remained in the stub with one shift of a hand when the dealer washed the cards before the deal. In reality this is pure superstition. The cards are still random, just a different random card was brought out. However the 1st to act player has given a massive ammount of real information up. I think bringing this card back and revoking action that has been taken has a massive real effect on the game. IMO replacing the card fixes chance and luck, but penalizes a player who has now been seriously disadvantaged.

[pokerplayer24 0]

The river card being revealed and a player betting out doesnt cause that much of a difference because it is a limit game. Thus a player with almost any pair would be calling the river bet either way due to pot odds. So their is no major disadvantage.I've seen this happen before as far as 2 burns or someone forgets to burn and the dealer has always corrected the mistake and turned up the correct card.

[cr1m35c3n3 0]

I guarantee that the dealer was demoted, if not fired...

[kfernandez 0]

There was already betting on that card so that card stands. You can't take back the card since everyone now knows what the bettor would've done with the flush on board.

[case ace 0]

I guarantee that the dealer was demoted, if not fired...

demoted from 3/6? :shock: its the quality of the limits. dealers are in demand these days, he's staying right where he is