did i make the right play?

[Dhall901 0]

Hello everyone,I just wanted to get some opinions on whether I made the right play in a recent tournament I was in. Here's the situation:$40 buy -in, start with $1800 in chips, blinds start at 25-50 and double every 20 minutes. First hand, I am in the big blind. Guy in 4th position raises to 400, everyone folds. Next hand, same guy opens with all in raise, everyone folds. Third hand, same guy opens with 500 chip raise, everyone folds. Fourth hand, this guy is now under the gun, and again comes in for a 500 chip raise. Everyone folds to me, and I am in the cutoff seat. I have pocket tens, and I raise all in.Was that the correct play? I ask because as it turns out, the guy on my left immediately called me with pocket aces, and I failed to suck out. The original raiser folded, saying he had A/Q. Was I correct to make a stand with my tens and just got unlucky that someone behind me picked up aces, or should I have folded? I really think I made the right move, but I would like to get some opinions.Thanks!Metalliman98

too early in the tourney to go all in with 10s, imho

[Pokerghost2 0]

Uhm, yeah, you do have a read on mister maniac; hence the label "mister maniac". It's possible that he really did pick up 5 straight huge hands. It's more likely that he's a maniac. That's what your "read" would be. Maybe he has a legitimate raising hand this time, but probably not. The most likely scenario is that it's a coinflip and you're ahead. Sometimes you'll be a solid favorite where he has one overcard. When he has a pair, you're either well ahead or well behind - and i think versus a maniac, you're well ahead more often than you're well behind. Being the maniac that he is, he'll probably call with virtually every one of those hand possibilities. He already has raised roughly 1/3rd of his stack, and given his maniac status, you should not be expecting him to fold.With only 3 more people to act behind you, moving in with tens is not terrible. Calling isn't an option. All hands that have you crushed are going to reraise preflop, and after having called 1/3rd of your stack, it's basically too late to bail. Going all in also potentially cleans up some of the overcards from hands like K/Q or J/Q who would call the initial raise, but not your all in. The stacks that they started off with are pretty small relative to the blinds. 36BB's doesn't offer much room for post flop play. In the next round of blinds, you'll have 18BBs - and this is probably one or two rotations away. That makes almost every hand you voluntarily put chips into an all in. There is not much time to sit on your chips and "outplay" the competition. The fact that the button had aces is a shame. It's highly improbable that, of the 3 hands left to act, any would have an overpair.

The problem with this is, its only been 4 hands. You can't really be sure of your maniac read. And even if he is a maniac, that doesnt help you define his hand. That's the point of reads, isnt it? Fish get aces every once in a while. Just because I label someone a fish doesnt mean i should call/reraise all of their pf raises when I have TT(especially when there are 3 people left to act), does it? You have no real READ on what his raises mean, so you can't define his hand. You're saying the most likely scenario is a coinflip. Do you want to risk all of your chips on a coinflip on the 4th hand? I don't.And the more i think about this, the more it screams fold. The only way you're getting called here is if you're beat. Think about it. UTG raises to 500, you reraise all in. People have to assume you're on 1 of 4 hands: AA, KK, QQ, AK. So the hands that would call you are probably those 4 hands, and since you DONT have a hand that good, you're looking at best at a coinflip (AK) or 4:1 dog if its AA/KK/QQ (which it was). So your all in here really only serves one purpose: Stealing the blinds and UTGs initial raise. Again, maybe he IS a maniac, maybe he would call your all in reraise with A/Q (if thats what he had) and maybe you survive... but that's a lot of maybes.EDIT: Let's use someone's example earlier, that the UTG had QJos. And let's assume the button didnt have AA, but AKos instead. This would seem to be the best case "worst case scenario" (best case would be they both lost their minds with smaller pp) for your tens. Even in this situation, you're an underdog TT- 32%, AK - 40%, QJ - 27%.

excellent post here i agree 100% i mean i get the feel the op is ready to make a stand, but a preflop all in on the 4th hand? i understand that the structure is bad, but do you really feel compelled to make your big move on the 4th hand? And there are people here who actually agree that really surprises me. If my call closes the action i still dont make that move, but if i were last to act i will admit id be tempted to push :-) wouldnt do it, but would be tempted.

[Kaedin 0]

4 hands IS enough to make a reasonable estimation of whether someone is a maniac. Your read can never be perfect. For a typical player to get hands that would justify 4 large raises in a row would require insanely improbable situations.The _most probable_ situation is a coin flip. A coin flip where you are a marginal favorite, and there is dead money in the pot.That doesnt mean there's a greater than 50% chance that it will be a coin flip, and even if it did, it's arguably still a good idea to call since the remaining 50% would be weighted so heavily with situations where you're a large favourite. It just means that it's MORE probable than any other individual possibility. It's more likely a coin flip than for him to have an underpair, but it's more likely for him to either have an under pair or a single overcard than it is for him to have two overcards. Yes, he is more likely to call with hands that have you beat than hands where you have him beat, but given that he has nearly 1/3rd of his stack in and he appears to be a maniac, he'll likely call with a wide variety of hands that you have beat.If you were absolutely certain that this was a coinflip where you were a marginal favorite, a fold may be appropriate. The reason for that is because you're probably assuming that you're a better player than your opponents and that you can forego a _good_ opportunity (in terms of chip maximization) in light of the expectation of _better_ opportunities later on down the road. The blinds are too big to assume that you'll get many great opportunities later on down the road, unless you think that your opponents are SIGNIFICANTLY worse than you.

EDIT: Let's use someone's example earlier, that the UTG had QJos. And let's assume the button didnt have AA, but AKos instead. This would seem to be the best case "worst case scenario" (best case would be they both lost their minds with smaller pp) for your tens. Even in this situation, you're an underdog TT- 32%, AK - 40%, QJ - 27%.

You're saying that as if the new assumptions are more reasonable. Having all 4 of your overcards conveniently covered is hardly what I'd consider a typical scenario. Maybe it's a _better_ scenario than the button having aces, but definitely not what you should be expecting on average.You're giving the maniac way too much credit based on the information we have.

How is 4 hands enough time to make a proper estimation on someone? He's showndown 0 hands. More over, you've seen his post flop play 0 times. His turn play 0 times. His river play 0 times. All you have seen by him are preflop raises. And, the point that I think you're missing the most is this: Its the not the maniac you have to worry about here. There are 3 people behind you still to act. If the OP is the big blind in this story and its been folded to him, then the choice to go all in seems much more viable.

You're saying that as if the new assumptions are more reasonable. Having all 4 of your overcards conveniently covered is hardly what I'd consider a typical scenario. Maybe it's a _better_ scenario than the button having aces, but definitely not what you should be expecting on average.

I'm not saying any assumptions are reasonable. But before you blindly call this all in, don't you need to make some assumptions? Assuming the "maniac" has nothing is dangerous and reckless and totally unwise. And as I said in another post, anyone that calls this all in has you beat (or has AK). A 500 raise followed by a reraise to 1800 screams of AA, KK, AK or maybe QQ, but since you don't have TT, anyone that calls your reraise most likely has you beat, or as its been said, its a coinflip with AK (and as I asked earlier, do you really want to risk your tournament on a coinflip on the 4th hand?)

[Loismustdie 0]

do u consider QJo premium? no, but its still a coinflip. point is its way too early and even idiots get a hand once in awhile.

What he said- wait for a better spot. What I find with maniacs like this is either they will play themselves right out of the tourney quickly or they will double me up when they have a stack and I have the goods.

[Binbs 0]

I think its better to call and see the flop before making a move. Then all according to what the flop looks like and what your opponent you decide what to do from there.If your opponent bets out you need to figure out if he hit the flop or not and act accordingly. If he checks then he's prolly laying a trap since he seems the aggressive type preflop. You could try and bet out, and if he calls then see if you can check it down. Some maniacs like drawing to inside str8 draws.The fact that the guy beside you had aces is just plain unlucky. You wouldnt expect the one of the last 3 people behind you to wake up to a monster preflop. But he would prolly reraise preflop and you would know that you were beat and would be able to fold preflop.You would be left with 1300 chips. More than enough chips to keep you healthy in the tournament. You dont wanna reraise with pocket 10s in a race situation before the flop.Seeing the flop is crucial so that you can avoid getting busted imo.

[Loismustdie 0]

Those are my points exactly Abbadabba. This tournament is structured in such a way that you basically have to double up before the end of the second round if you want to be a contender. It's not the world series' date=' where you have two hours per round and a deep stack, and can afford to arrive 5 hours late and not be in bad shape. Your starting M in this tourney (for those familiar with Dan Harrington's books) is only 24, and if you don't improve by the second round it goes down to 12. This makes it so that you [i']have to[/i] push your edge every chance you get.I feel this raiser would have called my all-in, but that is actually what I wanted. I knew he did not have a premium hand, so I figured at worst he had two over cards and it was a race. With the structure as it was, I'll take that race any day. Except that there are more people left to act, and they could have Jacks or better. I like aggressive play but you do not have enough information yet because you are not last to act- wait or a better spot, and really now you know why.

[Loismustdie 0]

Or you could just push any pocket pair sevens or better when a maniac pisses you off. I would not say this is the best play- but, you could do it if you want.

[Loismustdie 0]

My point is, I can't live in fear of someone behind me having a higher pocket pair in this situation. I saw an excellent opportunity to double up early and get some chips, and I could live with losing to the maniac if he drew out on me. If I sit there and fold because of the 5% chance that one of the three players behind me has A/A, K/K, Q/Q or J/J, I'm playing scared poker, and in this type of tournament with short rounds, you can't do that if you want to make the money. So yes, I push my edge here 100 out of 100 times. 52 times I beat the maniac, 43 times I lose to him, 4 times I lose when there is a higher pocket pair behind me, 1 time I suck out on that pocket pair.

If you already have this all worked out for yourself why bother asking.? Really, the answer is it was the wrong move for this tournament on this day- in order to survive in this one you needed to fold this hand. Pocket tens are not a bad hand, and if you are going to get involved here your only move is al in I agree with that- having said that I would not get involved here, and if I happened to do so because the maniac got to me which does happen- I would have to sit back and say " Damn, I really did not have to do that in that situation. O.K., next tourney."

[metalliman98 0]

I think its better to call and see the flop before making a move. Then all according to what the flop looks like and what your opponent you decide what to do from there.You would be left with 1300 chips. More than enough chips to keep you healthy in the tournament. You dont wanna reraise with pocket 10s in a race situation before the flop.Seeing the flop is crucial so that you can avoid getting busted imo.

Calling is the WORST possible choice to make here. Sure, in this specific case, it will let me know if one of the three players behind me has a better hand. But thats only a 19-1 shot. It also might let them play A/Q, A/J, or K/Q, which would be a disaster for me. I'm trying to isolate here.Say none of them come in, and I just call. What do I do if the flop comes A Q 4? Or K J 7? Or any flop with some face cards and no 10? I've just blown 1/3 of my stack. 1300 chips is not healthy when the blinds are about to go up to 50/100, reducing my M to 8.6. As a question to all those who say I should have folded, then at what point do I make a stand? Assume all of the conditions are the same; do I throw away pocket queens because someone behind me might have pocket aces or Kings? Do I throw away pocket Kings because someone might have aces? Do I throw away A/K? This guy has raised 4 hands in a row, is making comments that he is tired and wants to go home, I have no reason to believe he has a pair, maybe a single face card at best, and I only have 3 people left to act behind me. At this point, is there really a difference between holding 10's and holding Queens or Jacks? Even Kings? From what most of you are saying, it seems like I should have folded everything except Aces in this situation. I don't buy that.Let's hear from Daniel himself, lol. WWDD?

[Kaedin 0]

I think its better to call and see the flop before making a move. Then all according to what the flop looks like and what your opponent you decide what to do from there.You would be left with 1300 chips. More than enough chips to keep you healthy in the tournament. You dont wanna reraise with pocket 10s in a race situation before the flop.Seeing the flop is crucial so that you can avoid getting busted imo.

Calling is the WORST possible choice to make here. Sure, in this specific case, it will let me know if one of the three players behind me has a better hand. But thats only a 19-1 shot. It also might let them play A/Q, A/J, or K/Q, which would be a disaster for me. I'm trying to isolate here.Say none of them come in, and I just call. What do I do if the flop comes A Q 4? Or K J 7? Or any flop with some face cards and no 10? I've just blown 1/3 of my stack. 1300 chips is not healthy when the blinds are about to go up to 50/100, reducing my M to 8.6. As a question to all those who say I should have folded, then at what point do I make a stand? Assume all of the conditions are the same; do I throw away pocket queens because someone behind me might have pocket aces or Kings? Do I throw away pocket Kings because someone might have aces? Do I throw away A/K? This guy has raised 4 hands in a row, is making comments that he is tired and wants to go home, I have no reason to believe he has a pair, maybe a single face card at best, and I only have 3 people left to act behind me. At this point, is there really a difference between holding 10's and holding Queens or Jacks? Even Kings? From what most of you are saying, it seems like I should have folded everything except Aces in this situation. I don't buy that.Let's hear from Daniel himself, lol. WWDD?

I really think you let the maniac get to you. You keep referring to this as 'make a stand'. Ask yourself this: Would you normally go all in with pocket 10s, unless you were short stacked? It's only the fourth hand, don't label him a maniac, assume its someone you respect as a good player, and he raised 500 from UTG and you have 3 people left to act after you, what do you do with those pocket 10s?Maniacs usually try to do wild and crazy things to get you off of your game, it sounded like that's what happened here. Poker isnt about 'making stands', its about making good moves and minimizing your mistakes while maximizing your opponents.

At this point, is there really a difference between holding 10's and holding Queens or Jacks? Even Kings?

Yes. 1000 times, yes. (well, yes, except for the jacks part, because pocket jacks are the worst starting hand in hold em)

[potpumper43 0]

The fact that the poll-winning play is to call tells me that poster might want to ignore most responses, as calling is so obviously the worst of all the options!

[champ05 0]

Please, if you want to win FOLD!!!!Why would anyone call a huge raise esp with pocket tens...good hand but this isn't exactly the best spot for you. All in this early in the tourney is also pretty donkish but I guess it is better than calling. You should have let the guy with aces break him down(or someone that picked up a big hand later on) that hand and then he wouldn't have as many chips, and in turn you wouldn't have made such a tilty play.

[lboarts 0]

I voted call. If I get reraised by the button or the blinds, i fold. But I make this call hoping it winds up hu against maniac, then fold on the flop if J or higher appears. Three cards less than J and I'm pushing all in, unless the board suited up and maniac pushes first. Apparently this isnt the popular opinion amongst the posters, but I do believe it is among the voters.

[potpumper43 0]

Calling 1/3 of chips preflop in a NL tournament cannot be the right choice in this situation. Those chips are precious, the key to NL tournaments is to be the first man in the pool. Reactive play like this is a guarantee your NL tourny thinking is totally wrong. The LAGs win because they're the first man in!!!!!!

[lboarts 0]

Calling 1/3 of chips preflop in a NL tournament cannot be the right choice in this situation.  Those chips are precious, the key to NL tournaments is to be the first man in the pool.  Reactive play like this is a guarantee your NL tourny thinking is totally wrong.  The LAGs win because they're the first man in!!!!!!

In NL trny situations, the most important thing isnt aggression, its making the right decisions. Many times the right decision is aggression, other times it isn't. You're facing a big raise from a maniac who will more than likely race you with A10 or better, maybe even KQ. You're only a slight favorite against 2 overs, do you really want to race this early with TT? Not me. Folding here doesn't make sense to me either, because you do have a legitimate hand to play. It's still early, so if you have to fold the hand after your call, you still have enough chips to play, although you'll have to tighten up slightly. IMHO calling is the right action pf here.And as far as my NL trny thinking being all wrong goes, LMMFAO!!!!!