sklansky vs jesus limping/raising strategy

[dna4ever 2]

Last night I finished reading the chapter on Chris "Jesus" Ferguson in my Aces and Kings book. I dont have the exact verbage in front of me since the book is at home, but I remember reading this and wanting to get the forums input. Basically Ferguson says he has mathematically proven it is +EV to raise every hand anytime you are going to play a pot when you are first to enter. He even points out how this differs from the Sklansky method where limping is recommended with certain cards in certain positions.Ferguson agrees with limping after someone has entered the pot, but never if you first (regardless of position). Thoughts ?

[mulhs82 2]

From everything I've ever heard (never read a poker book) raising as the first into the pot comes strongly reccommended. I know personally I always want to raise even with limpers in front of me. However, with some of the more margianl hands I'll limp in at that point to take a flop. I should also say that the majoroity of my play comes in NL, so take this for what it's worth.

[cdddc75 0]

Is Ferguson's advice specifically tailored to small stakes LHE?

[Comatose_Soul 0]

Two quick thoughts -- I've really not pondered this very much.First, I probably raise about 60-75% of the hands I play (Ring Games.) I normally notice two things happen when I'm raising everytime I'm in a hand: stealing on the flop is easier (or works more often,) and generally someone at the table will get frustrated and either push-in on me, or start re-raising more often (normally someone starts playing a lot looser when I'm in the pot.)Second, while I generally like what Chris Ferguson is saying here, there seems to be more and more players that like to just call. Regardless of what they have, they call. They can have pocket rockets, flop a set, and just call, call, call. I think you have to be very careful of these anti-action junkies (I hate to label them calling stations, because they generally won't call you down with a 'bad' hand.)Like I said, just two 'quick' thoughts...

[dna4ever 2]

Is Ferguson's advice specifically tailored to small stakes LHE?

It never specified, I'll post the paragraph verbatim when I get home in a few hours. He just went on to say he had ran thousands of 'computer calculations' to mathematically support his strategy.

[cdddc75 0]

Is Ferguson's advice specifically tailored to small stakes LHE?

It never specified, I'll post the paragraph verbatim when I get home in a few hours. He just went on to say he had ran thousands of 'computer calculations' to mathematically support his strategy.

They might both be right here. Ferguson's advice might be best universally while the SSHE line might be best for the specific game for which it is tuned.

[koa 0]

Two quick thoughts -- I've really not pondered this very much.First, I probably raise about 60-75% of the hands I play (Ring Games.) I normally notice two things happen when I'm raising everytime I'm in a hand: stealing on the flop is easier (or works more often,) and generally someone at the table will get frustrated and either push-in on me, or start re-raising more often (normally someone starts playing a lot looser when I'm in the pot.)Second, while I generally like what Chris Ferguson is saying here, there seems to be more and more players that like to just call. Regardless of what they have, they call. They can have pocket rockets, flop a set, and just call, call, call. I think you have to be very careful of these anti-action junkies (I hate to label them calling stations, because they generally won't call you down with a 'bad' hand.)Like I said, just two 'quick' thoughts...

your raising 75% of the hands you play????? do you know how high that is. I hope you don't play alot of hands.

[Comatose_Soul 0]

your raising 75% of the hands you play????? do you know how high that is. I hope you don't play alot of hands.

I raise 60-75% of the hands I play. I don't play 60-75% of the hands I'm dealt ;)Playing hold'em I'll see anywhere between 15-30% of the flops depending on how I'm running, and if the table remains full. 30% is generally my peak on a full table.

[Meatwad 0]

To each thier own. This reminds me of an article on Jennifer Harmon's site called, "My Tough Decision.""I had a lot of questions, so I asked several players whose game I respect, and got very different answers. Phil Ivey: "I would have moved all-in on the turn. It's a tournament, and I want what's in the middle. I don't want to give my opponents any free cards to beat me." Daniel Negreanu: "Considering your read of Charlie, I liked the check on the turn. You were only going to get called when you were beat, and the worst thing that could have happened is you give him a free shot when he is drawing real slim anyway." It wasn't till I talked to legend, arguably the best poker player who has ever walked this earth, that the right answer dawned on me. Phil, Daniel, and I were all preoccupied with the wrong potential error.Here is what David "Chip" Reese had to say: "I would have avoided the whole dilemma by moving all-in on the flop. If you bet the $80,000 and get raised, you are going to call anyway, so why not just move all-in first? That way, you might even get your opponent to lay down the best hand as well." Duh! It seems so obvious to me now, but at the time it never dawned on me. Thanks, Chip! "So in conclusion...ask Chip!

[dmoneypoker 0]

As is per usual in a poker debate, I think it depends.Late in a tournament I am going to come out guns blazing looking to flop hands and bust people. But early on why risk more of your stack than you should? Let's say you are playing a mtt on Pokerstars where the blinds are 10-20 or on full tilt where they're 15-30, in both cases you get 1500 chips. If you pick up a small PP or a hand like Q-10 OR A-9 suited, when other time are you going to get another chance to play such a hand so cheaply? If you're playing the always-raise strategy, you're raising with a hand not worth raising with, so you should fold and thereby miss out on playing the hand cheaply. Also what does raising accomplish early on? If you raise 4x bb to like 80, you aren't going to drive out any good hands. Raising here with a mediocre hand will almost guarantee you have the worst of it heading to the flop when you are called, whereas limping you may get some weak hands involved in a multiway pot.Early in the tournament when people are playing tight is the time to get involved in as many cheap pots as possible looking to flop big hands and accumulate chips. If you miss then you escape with a loss that is smaller than any possible loss you can take later in the tournament.Then if you have a nice stack working, start playing a bit more solid as short/middle stacks will be trying to limp. Re-raise them when you have a hand and punish them. This is how I play mtt's and I win at least one a week.In ring games though, it's usually better to raise.Edit: Smart members will use this information against me tomorrow in the Negraneu Open.