jd's s&g scenario #3

[HoosierAlum 0]

Here my is scenario for today. This one is good and should stir up some interesting debate.75-150 Blinds 6 HandedI get dealt 8d8c in the CO+1 and raise it up to 450 (leaving me at 2300)Short stack in the CO calls all-in for 410Button smooth calls for 450 (leaving him at 1200)SB and BB fold Pot=1535(3 players not in hand each had around 3k in chips)The Button was a loose agressive player who was seeing alot of flops and was firing at most flops that were checked to him.The short stack was just down to 100 chips a few hands ago and has been pushing with pretty much anything.Flop comes 9s5s2sIm first to act....What do you do?

[cdddc75 0]

You're in one of three places compared to the Button in this hand:1. Way ahead if he has no spades and no 9.2. Ahead to a flush draw if he has one spade and no 9.3. Way behind if he has a made flush or a 9.Three choices:1. Push2. Weak lead/feeler bet3. CheckBased on your description of Button, we can assume that he's going to push if you choose option 2 or 3. Since you are probably ahead in this hand, I'd beat him into the middle and force him to call all in. If for some reason you think Button beats you, check/fold.Ordinarily I'd like to check this down to eliminate the CO, but I don't think the Button is going to cooperate. Might as well go for the kill here on the Button, since you can come back if you lose. I know that violates the basic SNG survival strategy. I just think you're ahead more often than you're crushed here.

[gobears 0]

Tough one.Your two options are to push or check/fold since the button will push if you just check. Based on your description of the button, if you just bet like 600, then he'll probably push anyways so I don't think betting a partial amount is an option at this point.You're probably ahead of the button. Win, you're #1 in chips, Lose, you still have 1,100 chips, enough to continue.Push and Pray

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

PUSH!! He was was trapping you with an overpair, you're screwed, but he's way more likely to have overcards than a flush, a nine or an overpair. hey may have two overs and a flush draw, and he will almost most certainly cal. But you don't want to give free cards incase he is just naked overs. PUSH

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am not convinced that pushing all-in here is the best option, but I definately don't think that checking is either. Ideally, you would like it to be checked down to the river (eliminating a player), but if you are unsure if you opponent is on the same page as you are and not wanting to bet into the dry side of the pot, then I think you have to put a feeler bet in there. :wink:

[cdddc75 0]

I am not convinced that pushing all-in here is the best option, but I definately don't think that checking is either.  Ideally, you would like it to be checked down to the river (eliminating a player), but if you are unsure if you opponent is on the same page as you are and not wanting to bet into the dry side of the pot, then I think you have to put a feeler bet in there. :wink:

What's the difference between a feeler bet and a check? Button is pushing in either way.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am not convinced that pushing all-in here is the best option, but I definately don't think that checking is either.  Ideally, you would like it to be checked down to the river (eliminating a player), but if you are unsure if you opponent is on the same page as you are and not wanting to bet into the dry side of the pot, then I think you have to put a feeler bet in there. :wink:

What's the difference between a feeler bet and a check? Button is pushing in either way.

we don't know that he is definately going to "fire" at the pot if we check, just that he had done it in the past, but were there people all-in in those cases? based on the information at hand, we have no idea if this guy is going to bet in this scenario or not if we check. :wink:

[cdddc75 0]

I am not convinced that pushing all-in here is the best option, but I definately don't think that checking is either.  Ideally, you would like it to be checked down to the river (eliminating a player), but if you are unsure if you opponent is on the same page as you are and not wanting to bet into the dry side of the pot, then I think you have to put a feeler bet in there. :wink:

What's the difference between a feeler bet and a check? Button is pushing in either way.

we don't know that he is definately going to "fire" at the pot if we check, just that he had done it in the past, but were there people all-in in those cases? based on the information at hand, we have no idea if this guy is going to bet in this scenario or not if we check. :wink:

We don't know for sure, but I think we can feel pretty confident that the guy will bet. Why wait for him to put the decision on us?

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am not convinced that pushing all-in here is the best option, but I definately don't think that checking is either.  Ideally, you would like it to be checked down to the river (eliminating a player), but if you are unsure if you opponent is on the same page as you are and not wanting to bet into the dry side of the pot, then I think you have to put a feeler bet in there. :wink:

What's the difference between a feeler bet and a check? Button is pushing in either way.

we don't know that he is definately going to "fire" at the pot if we check, just that he had done it in the past, but were there people all-in in those cases? based on the information at hand, we have no idea if this guy is going to bet in this scenario or not if we check. :wink:

We don't know for sure, but I think we can feel pretty confident that the guy will bet. Why wait for him to put the decision on us?

would it be such a bad thing for us to check, have this guy push, then we either call or fold? If we fold, we still have 2300 chips (not too shabby). If we call and lose, we still have 1100 chips (not that great, but not dead).If we call and win, we have 5035 (sweet). The more I look at it, I think it might be a check/call situation, as opposed to a push call or feeler bet/call. :wink:

[cdddc75 0]

I am not convinced that pushing all-in here is the best option, but I definately don't think that checking is either.  Ideally, you would like it to be checked down to the river (eliminating a player), but if you are unsure if you opponent is on the same page as you are and not wanting to bet into the dry side of the pot, then I think you have to put a feeler bet in there. :wink:

What's the difference between a feeler bet and a check? Button is pushing in either way.

we don't know that he is definately going to "fire" at the pot if we check, just that he had done it in the past, but were there people all-in in those cases? based on the information at hand, we have no idea if this guy is going to bet in this scenario or not if we check. :wink:

We don't know for sure, but I think we can feel pretty confident that the guy will bet. Why wait for him to put the decision on us?

would it be such a bad thing for us to check, have this guy push, then we either call or fold? If we fold, we still have 2300 chips (not too shabby). If we call and lose, we still have 1100 chips (not that great, but not dead).If we call and win, we have 5035 (sweet). The more I look at it, I think it might be a check/call situation, as opposed to a push call or feeler bet/call. :wink:

Tight/weak poker sucks. If we push in, we might get him to fold a slightly better hand than a pair of eights.

[HoosierAlum 0]

My playing style is very similar to cdddc75's. So far in all 3 of my scenarios we have agreed completely. I felt my only option here was to push. I was confident that I had the best hand preflop, and this flop didnt figure to help the LAG player on the button.By checking, I was pretty sure the button would push regardless of his holdings. Then I am the one forced to make a difficult decision for a large portion of my chips. But if I was the one forcing the button to call off all of his stack, he might lay down a better hand or maybe a spaid draw. I think checking is horrible because the LAG could very well check behind me on a draw, and I would give him a free look at catching his flush. If the spaid hit the turn, I was dead regardless. I couldnt bet anymore, and I couldnt call any bet from the button. Making a feeler bet is almost as bad as checking. This definitely wont get the button to fold, it will only allow him catch his draw cheaply, or induce him to bluff at me.Once again, I was confident I had the best hand at the moment, so I pushed all-in.

[Dubey 1,035]

personally, I think the key here is that the side pot is all but empty. If the Button is a reasonably intelligent player, he isn't going to push into an empty side pot with a hand that he isn't certain will beat the all-in guy.I think check/fold is the best option in this instance, as a check-down is more than likely, unless he has a monster.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Check-down was highly unlikely in this instance. First of all the button was LAG, and it was definitely not be beneath him to bluff at this even if there was no side pot. Secondly, why wouldn't he take a stab at this pot if I was showing weakness? It was a very large pot, and if he thought he had a stronger hand than the all-in, bluffing here would not be a bad play by him.This was DEFINITELY NOT going to be checked down. I was certain of that.

[Dubey 1,035]

Check-down was highly unlikely in this instance.  First of all the button was LAG, and it was definitely not be beneath him to bluff at this even if there was no side pot.  Secondly, why wouldn't he take a stab at this pot if I was showing weakness?  It was a very large pot, and if he thought he had a stronger hand than the all-in, bluffing here would not be a bad play by him.This was DEFINITELY NOT going to be checked down.  I was certain of that.

well I guess it depends on his/your point of view. personally, in a SnG, I'd rather see the button win this hand than the guy who is all-in. The button wins, he builds his stack sure, but you are down to 5 players. The all-in wins, he triples up, and you still hjave 6 players left, and no short-stack. I'd like all 3 players to see this through to the river so there are more outs to eliminate the all-in. Bluffing you out of a 100 chip side pot then losing the main pot to the all-in would be silly.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Not that we care what other people think of our play during the heat of battle, but seeing as most people agree that it should be checked down, why are we going against what the norm would say is the correct course of action? Did I not read one of Daniel's articles where he states that he doesn't like it when people do just what some people are advocating here (push after the flop)? I know a lot of other pros diagree with DN on that one, so it isnt so cut and dried. me personally, the more I have thought about it, the more I think that I personally would advocate check/call with that particular holding with that particular flop and that type of opponent.Good scenario question. :wink:

[Randy Reed 0]

Despite the good reads on the opponents I would tend to check fold and wait for a better battle, if the LAG pushes. Both likely have overcards and at least one is likely to have the flush draw if you aren't drawing near dead already. You might make an argument for pot equity here but since it's late in a tourney I'm not praying for a 2 outer.

[Nutcracker 0]

Let's see, 3 options on this flop.1) Make a bet, not setting the button all in. With the pot at 1500 and him only having 1100 left, I don't see what this would accomplish. Besides maybe a little confusion and making him mutter "fish" under his breath, I don't think this does anything for you.2) Go all in. Force him to call, though he's getting correct odds with any spade in his hand. He's only calling you if he has >50% chance to win the hand, as anything that is behind you right now has an easy fold on this flop (unless he's a real maniac and will call with A5/A2). And the side pot is dry, so you might not even be betting at anything at this point, as you could be drawing slim against the CO. Not sure this play really does anything for you.3) Check it to him. a) If he checks, you can see the turn card and push if a safe card falls, as his naked spade draw is no longer getting correct odds to call. If a scare card falls (A-J, any spade), check again and see if he's willing to check this down with a dry side pot. Even LAGs sometimes understand the idea of trying to knock someone out and checking down with a dry side pot. If I try to check it down and he moves on me on the turn/river on a scare card, I probably concede the pot. B) If he goes all in on the flop, I'd have to call. You say he loves betting when checked to him, so his range of hands is large enough here to make calling profitable. He'd probably make that move with just 2 overs, any spade, any lower pp, or A5/A2. Unless he has the flush, a higher pp (doubtful, unless he was trying to trap preflop, which is retarded with so much money in already), or a 9, you are in good shape to call his bet.The way I look at it is this.. I'm probably going to get all my money in on this pot on the flop unless it checks away, at which point it probably checks down. If he goes all in or if I put him all in on the flop, I'm risking less than pot size, and still have enough to try for a comeback if I lose. There's still 6 people left, so you can't really go into survival mode to try and make the money. If you want to win this thing, you must go after this pot.Now, if he's ahead of you, you're not going to get him to fold. A LAG will call the rest of their chips getting 2:1 with any hand that has you beat here (and I mean has >50% chance of winning when I say "has you beat"). If he's behind you, he's probably in some serious trouble, and probably won't call an all in, but might just push if checked to. I treat this like a WA/WB and let him do the betting. It will allow me to make more money when I'm ahead and lose the same amount when I'm behind.

[cdddc75 0]

I treat this like a WA/WB and let him do the betting. It will allow me to make more money when I'm ahead and lose the same amount when I'm behind.

That is the only good argument I've yet seen for checking it down. I can agree to a check/call with this line of reasoning.Check/fold is horrible based on pot odds.

[Nutcracker 0]

Yeah, I wouldn't check/fold the flop no matter what. The turn though.. If a 4th spade or another over comes, I can check/fold and not feel too bad. If he's checking the flop then betting the turn on a scare card, he's probably got you beat. You have the power to knock him out, so a scare card is going to scare him more than you.

[HoosierAlum 0]

I agree with many of Nutcracker's points. The only thing I hate about check/calling is if the LAG actually checks the flop. If a spaid or any face hits the turn, I pretty much have to give up the pot, which I hate to do at this point. Lets say he did have two overs with no spaid. He most likely would have folded to my all-in bet, but I just gave him a chance to hit and take away the pot on 4th street. Im still confused as to what is the correct play.Not that it matters, but here is what happened. I pushed all-in. LAG thought for the full allotment of time, but laid down his hand. The all-in ended up runner runnering trips on me so that sucked. LAG said he laid down a small flush. Im 99% sure he was lying, but I really was curious as to what he had. Must have been two overs with no spaid. Oh well, at least I came back to win in the end.