Union Worker Protests In Wi

[BaseJester 1]

If I were king of my state, I would pay teachers more, because I believe education is a very important task and that creating financial incentives attracts better talent. I would not grant special rights to a union to bargain collectively. However, I would negotiate with a teachers' union if it served the state's interest.Our public discourse has fallen to class warfare instead of principles. Yes, financial fat cats benefited from a complex bureaucracy and cronyism. This pisses me off. It does not motivate me to support another complex bureaucracy with special rights (e.g., codified union power) so that another group can get their slice of the pie. The state's interest is in providing education. Everywhere that the state spends money in the education budget should be given to a person accountable towards that goal. When a union cannot legally be fired, it is no longer accountable to that goal. It is an agent of a particular group, not of the state. When an administrators fail to put proper value on attracting and retaining good teachers, get rid of that administrator. If there's a person currently in the teachers' union who understands how to serve the children of the state better than the current administrators, the state should hire that administrator to work for its interests.

[85suited 0]

If I were king of my state, I would pay teachers more, because I believe education is a very important task and that creating financial incentives attracts better talent. I would not grant special rights to a union to bargain collectively. However, I would negotiate with a teachers' union if it served the state's interest.Our public discourse has fallen to class warfare instead of principles. Yes, financial fat cats benefited from a complex bureaucracy and cronyism. This pisses me off. It does not motivate me to support another complex bureaucracy with special rights (e.g., codified union power) so that another group can get their slice of the pie. The state's interest is in providing education. Everywhere that the state spends money in the education budget should be given to a person accountable towards that goal. When a union cannot legally be fired, it is no longer accountable to that goal. It is an agent of a particular group, not of the state. When an administrators fail to put proper value on attracting and retaining good teachers, get rid of that administrator. If there's a person currently in the teachers' union who understands how to serve the children of the state better than the current administrators, the state should hire that administrator to work for its interests.

good points - I believe adjusted for inflation, we have double our spend on education since 1970 without academic results improving, so there is a problem and it starts with accountability.(home & at school)

[hblask 1]

EDIT: Answered, nvm

[hblask 1]

But the governor is unwilling to budge and decides, "I'll just hire teachers that aren't union and are willing to to work in whatever conditions I decide are fair."

This, by definition, means that the union demands are unreasonable. If there are people willing to work for less under worse conditions, then the unions are stealing from them through force of government. That's immoral.

[hblask 1]

We've been over this "unions donate to the democrats" thing. See: CEO's control the Republicans and the questions I've posed there. You can answer those, I'm sure.

Go to opensecrets.org. You are wrong on the CEO thing. Facts matter.

[85suited 0]

Go to opensecrets.org. You are wrong on the CEO thing. Facts matter.

List of top donorshttp://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.phpList of Top individual Donors (AKA Greedy CEO's)http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topindivs.php8 of the top 10 are Democrats527 Groupshttp://www.opensecrets.org/527s/index.php?filter2=RDemocrats win here too! 251 million to 231 million

[LongLiveYorke 38]

This, by definition, means that the union demands are unreasonable. If there are people willing to work for less under worse conditions, then the unions are stealing from them through force of government. That's immoral.

Not if they won't do the job as well.

[hblask 1]

Not if they won't do the job as well.

If the unions didn't make it impossible to fire a terrible teacher, this wouldn't be an issue, just like it isn't in any other (non-unionized) industry.

[CaneBrain 95]

This, by definition, means that the union demands are unreasonable. If there are people willing to work for less under worse conditions, then the unions are stealing from them through force of government. That's immoral.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. By that logic, every worker in America has their job through immoral means since there are people in other countries who would do the job for less and work in worse conditions. No wonder we keep shipping jobs overseas if this is how libertarians like the Koch brothers think.Basing wages on what the most desperate person would take is hilarious.Also, can we stop with the myth of all these terrible teachers? There are probably the same percentage of terrible teachers as there are terrible employees in other fields and two teachers got fired this year at my wife's schools. It's just not as bad as people make it out to be.

[Balloon guy 158]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. By that logic, every worker in America has their job through immoral means since there are people in other countries who would do the job for less and work in worse conditions. No wonder we keep shipping jobs overseas if this is how libertarians like the Koch brothers think.Basing wages on what the most desperate person would take is hilarious..

So does this mean we are going to start busing our kids to India every day for school?

Also, can we stop with the myth of all these terrible teachers? There are probably the same percentage of terrible teachers as there are terrible employees in other fields and two teachers got fired this year at my wife's schools. It's just not as bad as people make it out to be

This is actually all the teacher's fault for two reasons:1st, if they hadn't taught us that children are our future and a teacher is the only way they can learn so give us more money...then we wouldn't relate the non-stop lowering test scores to being the teacher's faults. You can't have test scores dropping every single year while more and more money is going to education and not realize that eventually someone is going to ask whats going on.2nd: They should never have told us that we can think for ourselves. Because the people aren't buying the line anymore.

[CaneBrain 95]

lol BG. I think we are not too far off from tele-commuting students. Already happens on the crappy college level.

[ShakeZuma 585]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. By that logic, every worker in America has their job through immoral means since there are people in other countries who would do the job for less and work in worse conditions. No wonder we keep shipping jobs overseas if this is how libertarians like the Koch brothers think.Basing wages on what the most desperate person would take is hilarious.

economics is hard.in your defense though, immoral was the wrong word. inefficient is what he should have said.

[ShakeZuma 585]

economics is hard.

this was harsh. allow me to refudiate.there are certain jobs that can be outsourced (especially in the modern, internet age) and certain ones that cannot. those that cannot, like construction, medical, teaching, i.e. ones that require a physical presence, have a national market of job candidates to pull from and therefore only american's (or more specifically, people in america) are competing for these jobs, putting their wages on an american (read: high) scale. however, other functions, such as IT and call center work, can be much more easily outsourced as the work functions are more generic and can be completed on the workers own schedule, regardless of location. these are the jobs that we're always "shipping overseas" as people so lovingly put it. for instance, my company requires a lot of IT work, and to do this work, we use what we refer to as either onshore or offshore resources, onshore being IT workers in the states, most likely in the building, and offshore being overseas workers, and yes, typically indian. when planning for a specific IT build project, we have to analyze the different sections of build that have to be done by a person who is actually in the building, and the rest can be done by an overseas person because, yes, they work for about 20% of what an american will work for. if we used all american resources, our costs would be staggeringly higher (not to mention the project manager would be fired), raising our operating costs above the break even market level, causing us to have to raise our prices above what other competitors are charging (since they're using offshore resources too), and we'd be out of business. and I can tell you from the bottom of my heart, we don't "ship work overseas" because we hate america and the middle class; we do it because it is the most cost effective method for remaining competitive in the political situation we are in.

Basing wages on what the most desperate person would take is hilarious.

also, no, it isn't hilarious, it's exactly how economics works. not the most desperate person, but wages are based on the least amount a properly qualified candidate will accept to do the job. same thing as how prices are set. widgit A is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, and somebody will not buy widget A if there is a widget B available that is nearly identical in quality and availability while at a lower price. and now I'm gonna drink some fucking beer and listen to some more earl sweatshirt.

[BaseJester 1]

1st, if they hadn't taught us that children are our future and a teacher is the only way they can learn so give us more money...then we wouldn't relate the non-stop lowering test scores to being the teacher's faults. You can't have test scores dropping every single year while more and more money is going to education and not realize that eventually someone is going to ask whats going on.

Are you talking about particular teachers (as implied by the singular teacher's) or overall trends (as implied by the plural faults)? What test scores are you citing? I'm not at all saying you're wrong, but I would like to know what facts are in play here. This was the first thing that I found that applies and it doesn't follow your description.

[CaneBrain 95]

also, no, it isn't hilarious, it's exactly how economics works. not the most desperate person, but wages are based on the least amount a properly qualified candidate will accept to do the job. same thing as how prices are set. widgit A is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, and somebody will not buy widget A if there is a widget B available that is nearly identical in quality and availability while at a lower price.

I am thrilled my industry does not work this way at all.Also, adding the word qualified is kind of a big deal. And how you define qualified.

[custom36 4]

Do you know how much insurance is on a Ferrari????And Custom, don't be bringing up the snow plow guys to defend yourself....those guys only work 3-4 months a year. That's almost half what you work.

Maybe in So. Cal. We generally get snow November - May. When I was a kid we had Memorial Day snowstorms.

[CaneBrain 95]

When I was a kid we had Memorial Day snowstorms.

JUST WHAT THIS THREAD NEEDS----GLOBAL WARMING TALK.

[ShakeZuma 585]

I am thrilled my industry does not work this way at all.Also, adding the word qualified is kind of a big deal. And how you define qualified.

yes, it does. and yes, that's why I used it.

[custom36 4]

JUST WHAT THIS THREAD NEEDS----GLOBAL WARMING TALK.

No global warming talk - I'm too old for parades. I generally spend Memorial Day drinking with vet friends.Quick Edit - I'm not skipping the financial discussion forever...just because I'm tired and about to start drinking. I'll get to it eventally....maybe tomorrow. I'm only witty enough to BS right now.

[hblask 1]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. By that logic, every worker in America has their job through immoral means since there are people in other countries who would do the job for less and work in worse conditions. No wonder we keep shipping jobs overseas if this is how libertarians like the Koch brothers think.Basing wages on what the most desperate person would take is hilarious.Also, can we stop with the myth of all these terrible teachers? There are probably the same percentage of terrible teachers as there are terrible employees in other fields and two teachers got fired this year at my wife's schools. It's just not as bad as people make it out to be.

If wages were the only factor in the decision, then all jobs would go overseas. There are many other factors such as shipping costs, rule of law, education level of the population, access to supplies, and 100 other factors.And nice Koch reference: "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. " -- Rules for Radicals. Way to jump on the latest idiotic leftist bandwagon. I always thought you were smarter than that.Nobody believes all the teachers are terrible, just way, way too many of them, and they can't be fired in most states. For example, in Chicago, it takes from 2-5 years to fire a flagrantly bad teacher. Most school districts just pay them off rather than go through the process. And Chicago has it easy compared to the infamous process in NY and their rubber rooms.See Waiting for Superman for some shocking stats on firing teachers: one in 57 doctors loses his license, one in 97 lawyers loses their license; only on in 1000 teachers is ever fired for incompetence. Does that seem right?

[hblask 1]

Are you talking about particular teachers (as implied by the singular teacher's) or overall trends (as implied by the plural faults)? What test scores are you citing? I'm not at all saying you're wrong, but I would like to know what facts are in play here. This was the first thing that I found that applies and it doesn't follow your description.

Here's a key graph to explain why federal spending on education is a scam:

[hblask 1]

for instance, my company requires a lot of IT work, and to do this work, we use what we refer to as either onshore or offshore resources, onshore being IT workers in the states, most likely in the building, and offshore being overseas workers, and yes, typically indian.

This is what I was talking about in my post where I mention "100 other factors". Our company had a deal with one of the largest programming companies in India. They worked for less than 1/4th of what we worked for (by "we", I mean, my department of programmers). We were supposed to use them for certain types of work. So we had a project that qualified for outsourcing, despite the fact that I could've done it. A year and a half and close to a million dollars later, they delivered a product that was barely functional, and did the wrong thing more often than not. The language barrier was horrible, and we could never reach them on short notice because they were on the opposite side of the world. They had a staff turnover of about 30% every couple months, so we had to explain the project to them from scratch again and again.The project was eventually scrapped, the money was lost. Nobody in our area is willing to work with them again, and our company is not pushing for that any more.It's not just salary, it's a big picture. Frankly, if you can't compete with people who barely speak English and live far away and don't know your project, you probably deserve to be fired.Liekwise, teachers who can't compete with some fresh-faced kid just out of college with little or no experience deserve to be fired. Today.And for a humorous side of this: Doug Stanhope always cuts to the heart of the issue

[hblask 1]

And way to stay classy, demonstrators.Key stats:Public school teachers: over $53K/yearPrivate school teachers: just under $40K/yearThat single data point is enough, unless the private school teachers are doing a worse job:Satisfaction rate of parents:Public, assigned: 52%Public, chosen: 62%Private: 79%

[custom36 4]

Another big rally at noon today at the CapitolTea partiers are rallying today as well. In a conference room....3 miles away.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

And way to stay classy, demonstrators.Key stats:Public school teachers: over $53K/yearPrivate school teachers: just under $40K/yearThat single data point is enough, unless the private school teachers are doing a worse job:Satisfaction rate of parents:Public, assigned: 52%Public, chosen: 62%Private: 79%

I can think of many reasons for parents being more satisfied with their children's education in Private Schools that have nothing to do with the quality of the teacher.Are the classes smaller in Private Schools ?Is the Private School's religious/moral teaching consistent with the beliefs of the parent ?Are there less problem children at the Private School since they will come from a higher income group and also from the fact that the Private School doesn't have to take children that they don't want to thus making the in class experience better ?Is there a general bias in people to perceive their level of satisfaction to be higher with something when they are paying for it themselves ?I'm not saying that the quality of the teachers isn't a factor in the satisfaction level but you can't use that statistic in the way that you're trying to.