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[Balloon guy 158]

OK . . .What letters are you referring to as "good quality doctrinally fine letters"?

The apocrypha...most of the church father's letters. I haven't read any of them in years.Interesting side note. According to one of them, discussing the Garden of Eden, Adam lasted all of a few hours before he ate the forbidden fruit.Pretty sucky to have paradise and throw it away before you have even carved your name in one tree.

[BaseJester 1]

The apocrypha...most of the church father's letters. I haven't read any of them in years.

Where's the part where SB mentions these letters?

[GrindMachine 0]

My belief is that religion and religious documents were created to control society. I mean it's a smart move to create something so powerful at a time when man and the judicial system aren't as advanced."if you don't follow the word of god you shall spend eternity being pulled around and tortured by the devil in hell..."or"don't do that, else you won't get 72 virgins waiting for you after you die!!!"Obviously I'm not doubting there is some very good lessons on how to go about your life in the bible, and I like to think I stick to them as best as I can, being a good person. But at the same time I think it's ludicrous that people believe it to be fiction! As a student of science I feel that if you don't believe in the more scientific theory of life then you can't believe in anything that human advancement has told us. If I believed that god created the world in 6 days I sure as hell wouldn't get in a 30 ton plane and attempt to fly to another country, just because some boffs tell me it works...

[Southern Buddhist 1]

When someone uses this particular excuse to justify their ability to confirm a date within a 10 year span over 2,000 years ago..you bet I am going to assassinate it. But not with hyperbole, with plain old common sense.The oldest parchments we have of the Bible are about 60+ years after they weer written, and that is only a fragment of a page, the oldest full Bible is probably a couple hundred years later.Do you think the single most important book in the world was lost while we have a treasure trove of written materials including pen pal letters and 13 year old girl's diaries to know the popular catch phrases of the day?SB tried to sneak that through, after someone passed this hogwash on her through a book that could never be considered authoritative, and I won't let it stand without shining a light of obviousness on it.You are once again deciding that I am saying things you don't agree with, so you will just discount it out of hand rather than face the truth that I am right.It's cool, on the issue of textual criticism of the New Testament, it is your only recourse.

Not even. I'm quoting it as a matter accepted by hundreds of scholars who are capable of doing their own translations of ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, and their conclusions are peer-reviewed, critiqued, debated, and defended before they ever see the light of day. Can you say the same?

[solderz 0]

You can't fix stupid

[Southern Buddhist 1]

When a Hebrew word has more than one meaning, like day, you use context. Context for the 60 weeks of Daniel fits in perfectly for a 490+ prediction, hence the ability to use the context to see that the Hebrew word can mean 7 years.

I realized I shouldn't have let this slide in without drawing some attention to it. Believers always say this, that the Hebrew words for time had different meanings depending on context. But, really, can you actually provide evidence of this? What is the Hebrew word, exactly, that you say has multiple meanings? Are there instances of it being used in context-dependent ways in places other than the Bible (where the context and meaning are exactly what is being disputed)? Who are the scholars who read, write, and translate ancient Hebrew themselves who say that Hebrew time words meant different time periods depending on context?

[Balloon guy 158]

I realized I shouldn't have let this slide in without drawing some attention to it. Believers always say this, that the Hebrew words for time had different meanings depending on context. But, really, can you actually provide evidence of this? What is the Hebrew word, exactly, that you say has multiple meanings? Are there instances of it being used in context-dependent ways in places other than the Bible (where the context and meaning are exactly what is being disputed)? Who are the scholars who read, write, and translate ancient Hebrew themselves who say that Hebrew time words meant different time periods depending on context?

It's called Strong's Hebrew Greek Concordance

[Mills 0]

It's called Strong's Hebrew Greek Concordance

Either the link doesn't work, or no atheists are allowed.

[Balloon guy 158]

Not even. I'm quoting it as a matter accepted by hundreds of scholars who are capable of doing their own translations of ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, and their conclusions are peer-reviewed, critiqued, debated, and defended before they ever see the light of day. Can you say the same?

Well, seeing as how most scholars of Hebrew and Greek agree with me, or I should say, I agree with them, then yes, your 'hundreds' don't really meet the requirement to get me to believe that they have a grasp of the syntax of the day to date a 2,000 year old manuscript from its use of slang, colloquialisms and popular jargon well enough to change the accepted dates of the book of Romans.But they wouldn't get anyone to buy their books if they agreed with what everybody already knows now would they?

[Balloon guy 158]

Either the link doesn't work, or no atheists are allowed.

Well there you go...I'll fixed it.There, fixeded it.It is a book based on this revolutionary notion that context can determine the meaning of a word. And that translating one language to another sometimes doesn't have a single word for word translation, for you know, languages that don't have exactly the same amount of words in them.It's kind of new I guess. the notion that context would explain meaning.Unlike english, which only has one meaning for every single word.

[vbnautilus 48]

Unlike english, which only has one meaning for every single word.

Units of measurement do not generally change in the quantities they refer to. If they did, how would I my wife ever bake anything?

[brvheart 1,752]

Units of measurement do not generally change in the quantities they refer to. If they did, how would I my wife ever bake anything?

"you beat him by a mile"

[BaseJester 1]

Well there you go...I'll fixed it.There, fixeded it.It is a book based on this revolutionary notion that context can determine the meaning of a word. And that translating one language to another sometimes doesn't have a single word for word translation, for you know, languages that don't have exactly the same amount of words in them.It's kind of new I guess. the notion that context would explain meaning.Unlike english, which only has one meaning for every single word.

The context the Christians are using is the event that they wish to assign to the fulfillment of the prophecy. That is, one can tell that week means year because the events Christians believe fulfills the prophesy span years instead of weeks. That's fine in the context of a faith-based belief, but it's not really a prediction.

[brvheart 1,752]

The real issue is that SB has brought up a legitimate point that ALL Christians should seek the answer to. We can't just continue to say "Daniel predicted it", even if he didn't. BG do you have some secular or Jewish source that confirms the use of those words are different? I think it's pretty important.

[Balloon guy 158]

The context the Christians are using is the event that they wish to assign to the fulfillment of the prophecy. That is, one can tell that week means year because the events Christians believe fulfills the prophesy span years instead of weeks. That's fine in the context of a faith-based belief, but it's not really a prediction.

So Daniel predicts that in the future, an official decree will be declared to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, even though the ruling country at this time was the one that enslaved the Jews.And after the decree is placed, there would be a countdown to the coming of the Messiah. A countdown of 463 years.So Daniel predicts two future events, and uses the first one to be the starting of the second one.These predictions come true, to the number.And you guys discount this because you feel the word week can only mean 7 days, so you discount this prophecy because of your deep knowledge of ancient Hebrew, and the normal language used when making predictions of half a century durations during the Babylonian rule of certain millenniums.Based on a book found on the bargain shelf at Barnes and Noble.A closed mind is a terrible thing to use.

[Balloon guy 158]

The real issue is that SB has brought up a legitimate point that ALL Christians should seek the answer to. We can't just continue to say "Daniel predicted it", even if he didn't. BG do you have some secular or Jewish source that confirms the use of those words are different? I think it's pretty important.

?To argue that the wrong word was used to make a prediction that defies any statistical ability to happen, is not a high enough objection to demand the last 1500 years of understanding of this issue is now in a precarious position.If this was a prediction without specific events, like a decree to rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem, or the date of the coming of the Messiah, AND these prediction didn't come true as predicted, then maybe you could argue that there is a vagueness that Christians are sneaking in a win where there is at best a draw.But if the ONLY way you can discount this prophecy is to argue the usages of a specific Hebrew word, shabuwa, which when literally translated means sevened, can only mean what we understand the english translation of this word to be, then I guess we are pretty much on the home stretch of closing the door to this foolish notion that the Bible isn't the Word of God.So the Hebrews have a word that means literally sevened...and we translate that to week, because the majority of the time it is used in the Bible, like Genesis 28, where the word means the 7 days of the bridal ceremony. The CONTEXT tells us that the honeymoon period of the bride and groom is more likely 7 days, whereas the CONTEXT of the 70 weeks decreed for the nation Israel fits perfectly with the meaning of 7 years. Seeing as how the result of this prophecy was to predict the coming of Messiah 463 years later...I think we can be confident that applying context is a reasonable condition to a word that means sevened.When Christ was asked how many times must we forgive others,,he said not 7 times, but 70 times 7 times. Did Christ mean once we have forgiven 490 times we are free to never forgive again? Od did the context mean we are to forgive again and again?

[brvheart 1,752]

I don't buy it.

[Balloon guy 158]

I don't buy it.

Then feel free to explain how the Hebrew word shabuwa should be translated into english.Know that the word derives from the root word shaba, which is connected to the word sheba, which means seven, seven times, and by implication; a week. By extension it means an indefinite number; seven fold, seventeen, and seven times.I wonder how they can ever know what usage of the word is meant...

[Roll the Bones 74]

When someone uses this particular excuse to justify their ability to confirm a date within a 10 year span over 2,000 years ago..you bet I am going to assassinate it. But not with hyperbole, with plain old common sense.The oldest parchments we have of the Bible are about 60+ years after they weer written, and that is only a fragment of a page, the oldest full Bible is probably a couple hundred years later.Do you think the single most important book in the world was lost while we have a treasure trove of written materials including pen pal letters and 13 year old girl's diaries to know the popular catch phrases of the day?SB tried to sneak that through, after someone passed this hogwash on her through a book that could never be considered authoritative, and I won't let it stand without shining a light of obviousness on it.You are once again deciding that I am saying things you don't agree with, so you will just discount it out of hand rather than face the truth that I am right.It's cool, on the issue of textual criticism of the New Testament, it is your only recourse.

I won't get into the translation debate. I get what you are saying BG, disputing two thousand years of understanding over simple word play is pretty ridiculous. But given the lack of information in written word from the time, if I said the following would you consider it myth or fact based on the written knowledge of the subject? Just trying to keep things simple for our discussion.Early in the first century, in an eastern province of the Mediterranean there was a man who said he had powers to heal the sick, raise the dead and preached love, forgiveness and the worship of one true God. Roman authorities fearing his expanded fellowship might pose a social or political threat, had him arrested and put to death. Following his execution his disciples said he rose from the dead and delivered them a message, and then ascended to heaven.

[Roll the Bones 74]

http://www.wecanknow.com/Oh, also since you understand the bible dating can you tell me if Judgement day is coming on May 21st like they are saying. I understand the world won't end till October 21st and my birthday is the 20th so I need to know how much to party, kthanx!

[Balloon guy 158]

I won't get into the translation debate. I get what you are saying BG, disputing two thousand years of understanding over simple word play is pretty ridiculous. But given the lack of information in written word from the time, if I said the following would you consider it myth or fact based on the written knowledge of the subject? Just trying to keep things simple for our discussion.Early in the first century, in an eastern province of the Mediterranean there was a man who said he had powers to heal the sick, raise the dead and preached love, forgiveness and the worship of one true God. Roman authorities fearing his expanded fellowship might pose a social or political threat, had him arrested and put to death. Following his execution his disciples said he rose from the dead and delivered them a message, and then ascended to heaven.

Well the truth of your paragraph is not more likely or less likely by anything I bring to the table. It is either true or false on its own.If we are talking about a newly found document we could argue that an event such as this would be a world changing event, that the results of this would be felt everywhere for a long long time.If the followers of this were all put to death, given the option to be spared if they merely recanted their story, and not one did, but all suffered painful deaths, and died with no wealth from their following this Man...that would lend itself more to the validity. And present a problem for anyone who later wants to try to discount the story out of hand.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I've been doing a little research on the subject myself and it's pretty confusing. Jehovah's Witnesses weren't very good at it. They predicted it would come in 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, oh hell I'm tired of typing numbers they did this up to 1975. So do you believe the world will end after the 6000 year creation? Do you believe in the Six Ages?

[Balloon guy 158]

http://www.wecanknow.com/Oh, also since you understand the bible dating can you tell me if Judgement day is coming on May 21st like they are saying. I understand the world won't end till October 21st and my birthday is the 20th so I need to know how much to party, kthanx!

Well as my anniversary is on May 28th, I am stuck trying to decide if I can skip getting her a present this year.I guess if I use my credit card it's a win win.

[Balloon guy 158]

I've been doing a little research on the subject myself and it's pretty confusing. Jehovah's Witnesses weren't very good at it. They predicted it would come in 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, oh hell I'm tired of typing numbers they did this up to 1975. So do you believe the world will end after the 6000 year creation? Do you believe in the Six Ages?

No, there are a lot of goofy predictions.A mentor type for me early on told me this: There is a lot of money in end times prophecy.I've seen too many people trying to 'be the one to figure it out'. and so far, no good.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Well the truth of your paragraph is not more likely or less likely by anything I bring to the table. It is either true or false on its own.If we are talking about a newly found document we could argue that an event such as this would be a world changing event, that the results of this would be felt everywhere for a long long time.If the followers of this were all put to death, given the option to be spared if they merely recanted their story, and not one did, but all suffered painful deaths, and died with no wealth from their following this Man...that would lend itself more to the validity. And present a problem for anyone who later wants to try to discount the story out of hand.

So you don't dicount the story of Apollonius of Tyana who died in AD 98, 6 decades after Jesus, it's just you'd give the story more validity if his followers were put to death for not recanting thier story? Well, that happened too. So you would say it's not a myth, it is factual based on writings and word of mouth?