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[BaseJester 1]

Brvheart, do you believe that the events Jesus refers to in the verse quoted by Rolls the Bones have already occurred, or that they will occur in the future?29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

[BaseJester 1]

My main issue with religion is that they add so many things that aren't in the Bible. Catholics identify much more with their weekly kneelings and chants than they do with the Bible. I've talked with many Catholic priests who are painfully unaware of the gospel... but they have all the Catholic chants memorized.

More than once, you've disparaged my knowledge of the bible. More than once, an atheist has quoted you a famous verse from the gospel and you've displayed unfamiliarity with it. So, sir, I believe you remember these encounters through a haze of hubris. What were these priests names? What specifically were they each unaware of in the gospel?

[Roll the Bones 74]

Sorry, I forgot to say it was Matthew. I do love me some bible stuff though and have honestly learned alot, like Brvheart, since coming here and miss these discussions. My writing skilz are still pretty bad as well. But, back to Matthew and BJ's question.

24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

But in Matthew 10:23, he said the end would come before the gospel was preached to all the cities of Israel. In any case, this is a false prophecy since the gospel has been preached throughout the world (as Paul says in Romans 10:18) yet the world hasn’‘t ended.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I definitely wasn't criticizing your writing. You were using the terms in exactly the way millions of conservative US Christians use them. I just wanted to point out how slippery and flip-floppy that sounds to people outside the magic circle who are trying to figure out what all of you mean when you call yourselves Christian but then criticize everything you don't like as "religion."So it sounds like you're taking door number 2. Which is a perfectly reasonable path (I really didn't know which one most conservative Christians would take), but then you have to admit that the only criterion is what is in a person's heart, not what their church does or doesn't do. While you may fear their church is leading them astray, your own interpretations and rules are pretty moot, since the nun praying to Mary with her rosary may have "Jesus died for my salvation" just as deeply in her heart as you do in yours.

As much as I reconcile with Brv's view about religon's problems, since we all seem to be on the same page, (that if fact it seems to poison everything), I'm having a hard time following the logic here. 1. Believe that Jesus is the path to salvation. We only know this from the bible.2. Don't believe in the bible though, just the message3. Don't believe in any religon based on the bible.4. The bible is in fact true though.

[Balloon guy 158]

We've already sooo had this argument. "This generation shall not pass" is not a description of what the end times will look like, it's a prediction of when they will occur -- a prediction that turned out to be wrong.

?Someone asks when will the end be?Jesus begins describing events, and says that when these things are happening, then this generation can know that they are the last.Anyone who thinks differently is being purposefully ignorant of the obvious.

[Balloon guy 158]

But in Matthew 10:23, he said the end would come before the gospel was preached to all the cities of Israel. In any case, this is a false prophecy since the gospel has been preached throughout the world (as Paul says in Romans 10:18) yet the world hasn’‘t ended.

The Gospel being preached to the ends of the world was not the single requirement for the end of days to begin. Just as the abomination of desolation being in the Temple is not the only requirement ( as seen later when Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the alter in the 2nd century BC. )Although Haley's Bible handbook does an amazing job of relating many of these things to events that have occurred.And Paul clearly had not reached the ends of the world, only the ends of the Roman ruled world.

[Balloon guy 158]

Correct. I have no problem believing that some Catholics could in fact be saved, even though their church, throughout history, has done everything it could to point people in another direction.

I would argue that Catholics are saved.They hold the basic doctrinal truths necessary, then tack on a ton of man made stuff that dilutes it sure, but they have reached the level of being saved with their doctrine.No different than many protestant churches though with regards to people's actual efforts in the asking of forgiveness, some more than others.

[Roll the Bones 74]

The Gospel being preached to the ends of the world was not the single requirement for the end of days to begin. Just as the abomination of desolation being in the Temple is not the only requirement ( as seen later when Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the alter in the 2nd century BC. )Although Haley's Bible handbook does an amazing job of relating many of these things to events that have occurred.And Paul clearly had not reached the ends of the world, only the ends of the Roman ruled world.

So Matthew was lying?

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

I definitely believe that only followers of Christ will go to heaven...You must believe that Jesus came to Earth to die for your sin.

I have no problem believing that some Catholics could in fact be saved, even though their church, throughout history, has done everything it could to point people in another direction.

Pretty sure Catholics believe that Jesus came to Earth to die for their sin.

[Mills 0]

?Someone asks when will the end be?Jesus begins describing events, and says that when these things are happening, then this generation can know that they are the last.Anyone who thinks differently is being purposefully ignorant of the obvious.

Obviously

[Roll the Bones 74]

34. This generation shall not pass away. Though Christ employs a general expression, yet he does not extend the discourses to all the miseries which would befall the Church, but merely informs them, that before a single generation shall have been completed, they will learn by experience the truth of what he has said. For within fifty years the city was destroyed and the temple was razed, the whole country was reduced to a hideous desert, and the obstinacy of the world rose up against God. Nay more, their rage was inflamed to exterminate the doctrine of salvation, false teachers arose to corrupt the pure gospel by their impostures, religion sustained amazing shocks, and the whole company of the godly was miserably distressed. Now though the same evils were perpetrated in uninterrupted succession for many ages afterwards, yet what Christ said was true, that, before the close of a single generation, believers would feel in reality, and by undoubted experience, the truth of his prediction; for the apostles endured the same things which we see in the present day. 155 And yet it was not the design of Christ to promise to his followers that their calamities would be terminated within a short time, (for then he would have contradicted himself, having previously warned them that the end was not yet;) but, in order to encourage them to perseverance, he expressly foretold that those things related to their own age. The meaning therefore is: “This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present generation will not experience.” So then, while our Lord heaps upon a, single generation every kind of calamities, he does not by any means exempt future ages from the same kind of sufferings, but only enjoins the disciples to be prepared for enduring them all with firmness.-John Calvin

Calvin really?He was just a totalitrian wannabe anti-semite dictator who used the bible to torture people and profit and set himself as the leader using faith as his sword. Some of his lunacies included,

was a strict moral code imposed and every sin was made a crime e.g. no work or pleasure on a Sunday; no extravagance in dress. If you were excommunicated you were banished from the city. Blasphemy could be punished by death; lewd singing could be punished by your tongue being pierced.

[Balloon guy 158]

So Matthew was lying?

Not sure how you get that from what I wrote.So I'll go into depth if you want:Let's turn to the book of Matthew chapter 24...

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Interesting side note, when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 60 something AD, they burned the Temple. This caused the gold to melt running in between the rocks. They tore the entire structure down to get to this gold, not one stone was left on another...But this was Jesus talking about the future of that specific building. THIRTY YEARS BEFORE IT HAPPENED!

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Now they ask Him the big question, in two parts, Jesus goes into explaining the second part here.

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This section leaves us with a a broad overview of the entire time of the End. This ties in extremely well with the book of Revelations chapter 6. In fact the seals in Revelation are an expounding of the things touched on here. The first 5 seals tie in pretty accurately.Now Christ begins to focus the attention to the specific events that happen at the end of the 6th seal;

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

So Jesus is answering His disciple's question about the End of Time, and He explains the signs to tell when that day arrives, those signs are what lead us to the following:

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This ties in with the 6th seal of Revelations enough to quote it: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”The 6th seal, is the precursor to the actual beginning of the End. This will last either 7 years as some believe because of Daniel, or 3.5 years as the enlightened believe because of Matthew and Revelations, But irregardless, the End is here, it's length of time either way is within a generation of people.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Now Christ returns to the overall, telling them to look for the signs, because when the signs all come together, then the End of Time is going to happen quickly, so quickly that the generation that sees the beginning of these signs will live for the entire series of events.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Let's turn to the book of Matthew chapter 24...

QUOTE 1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”Interesting side note, when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 60 something AD, they burned the Temple. This caused the gold to melt running in between the rocks. They tore the entire structure down to get to this gold, not one stone was left on another...But this was Jesus talking about the future of that specific building.

(So there was a building with a solid gold roof in Jerusalem then? Seems extravagent for the times, who built it and why?) Just curious.

QUOTE 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”Now they ask Him the big question, in two parts, Jesus goes into explaining the second part here.QUOTE

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquake, got it, not quite original but I get it.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

How will they be saved? But really couldn't he have just said that, "like all other successful religons, I am going to tell you not to listen to the other ones?This section leaves us with a a broad overview of the entire time of the End. This ties in extremely well with the book of Revelations chapter 6. In fact the seals in Revelation are an expounding of the things touched on here. The first 5 seals tie in pretty accurately.Now Christ begins to focus the attention to the specific events that happen at the end of the 6th seal;

QUOTE 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

So Jesus is answering His disciple's question about the End of Time, and He explains the signs to tell when that day arrives, those signs are what lead us to the following:Okay, so he reaaaaalllly doesn't want you to believe in other gods. Also, are all the different bibles so different, mine has alot of this pretty different.

QUOTE 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“‘the sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky,and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Okay, so the moon can reflect light from the sun, but if the sun and stars are gone we wouldn't exist to actually see this to see the "sign", eh? Oh wait, it's a lunar eclipse, but haven't we had tons of them since then?

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This ties in with the 6th seal of Revelations enough to quote it:

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Umm, weren't the mountains and islands just ripped up, why did he tell them to hide there? Seems like a cruel practical joke. The people on the mountain were screwed for following his order but the ones who wussed out and hid in the rocks below lucked out? I mean though, C'mon, if something was strong enough to wipe out the face of the planet, people wouldn't be around to worry in the first place.The 6th seal, is the precursor to the actual beginning of the End. This will last either 7 years as some believe because of Daniel, or 3.5 years as the enlightened believe because of Matthew and Revelations, But irregardless, the End is here, it's length of time either way is within a generation of people.But really that doesn't say nothing, it's here when it's here give a generation or so? Watch this. I am the messiah, before the world ends, there will be a generation preceding it!!

QUOTE 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Now Christ returns to the overall, telling them to look for the signs, because when the signs all come together, then the End of Time is going to happen quickly, so quickly that the generation that sees the beginning of these signs will live for the entire series of events. meh more later

[Roll the Bones 74]

So when does Matthew say the world will end?Before the gospel is preached to all the cities of Israel. Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matthew 10:23After the gospel is preached to all the nations of the earth. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

[Roll the Bones 74]

Let me ask you this. Why didn't Jesus say something like, The earth is round and revolves around the sun. It has been doing this for a very long time. There has been life before you on this planet for a very long time and you will eventually find their remains, study them. You will also find many other people on this planet, be kind to them. Don't enslave them. Because people might look and appear different you are all descended from the same animals. etc..

[brvheart 1,752]

More than once, you've disparaged my knowledge of the bible. More than once, an atheist has quoted you a famous verse from the gospel and you've displayed unfamiliarity with it. So, sir, I believe you remember these encounters through a haze of hubris. What were these priests names? What specifically were they each unaware of in the gospel?

Define "famous verse". The only famous verse I know is John 3:16. I'm 100% confident that even in Christian communities that any verse in Matthew 24 would be known as famous by <1% of the people.The priests in question said specifically that people of other religions could go to heaven if they were good people. This is clearly against the teaching of the Bible. I wasn't talking one-on-one either time, but in a panel discussion setting, and I don't remember their names, since it was the 80's and 90's.

But in Matthew 10:23, he said the end would come before the gospel was preached to all the cities of Israel. In any case, this is a false prophecy since the gospel has been preached throughout the world (as Paul says in Romans 10:18) yet the world hasn’‘t ended.

You need to read the Calvin quote again.

As much as I reconcile with Brv's view about religon's problems, since we all seem to be on the same page, (that if fact it seems to poison everything), I'm having a hard time following the logic here. 1. Believe that Jesus is the path to salvation. We only know this from the bible.2. Don't believe in the bible though, just the message3. Don't believe in any religon based on the bible.4. The bible is in fact true though.

1. Yes.2. What? Who said don't believe the Bible?3. I was simply saying that the Bible's message should not be skewed. Religions tend to add in their own things, which skews the message. There are churches out there that are good, but very few 'religions'... if that makes sense.4. Yes.

I would argue that Catholics are saved.They hold the basic doctrinal truths necessary, then tack on a ton of man made stuff that dilutes it sure, but they have reached the level of being saved with their doctrine.No different than many protestant churches though with regards to people's actual efforts in the asking of forgiveness, some more than others.

I disagree completely with the blanket statement that Catholics are saved. I don't believe that as a blanket statement for any religion or church.

Pretty sure Catholics believe that Jesus came to Earth to die for their sin.

I agree that Catholic doctrine states this. The issue is a basic understanding of the gospel. If you believe that Jesus came to Earth to die for you, BUT you think that you can be good and go to heaven, and that Jesus isn't required for everyone, that's a serious misunderstanding of the redemption of sin. So much so, that I believe a case could be made that they (no one in particular) don't understand salvation at all.(according to the Bible)Secondly, James says that you can see that someone's faith in Christ is real by their actions. Their actions don't save them, but someone with the Holy Spirit inside of them is going to be constantly trying to be more like Christ.This an example of what I'm talking about.... http://www.iowastatedaily.com/home/archive...desc&f=htmlThe first column is written by a Catholic columnist. Her views are very similar to many Catholics I've run into. Her main focus is being "good", even though that has nothing to do with salvation. Atheists can also be good, like many of the people here.The second is a column written by a Catholic student. Even though one of his main points is incorrect and shows a lack of basic Biblical understanding (that the Sabbath is holy), it's seems pretty obvious that his heart is dedicated to Jesus.

Calvin really?He was just a totalitrian wannabe anti-semite dictator who used the bible to torture people and profit and set himself as the leader using faith as his sword. Some of his lunacies included,

wait, what?

Let me ask you this. Why didn't Jesus say something like, The earth is round and revolves around the sun. It has been doing this for a very long time. There has been life before you on this planet for a very long time and you will eventually find their remains, study them. You will also find many other people on this planet, be kind to them. Don't enslave them. Because people might look and appear different you are all descended from the same animals. etc..

*eyeroll*

[Roll the Bones 74]

Geez, I'll help you guys out. Here is all you have to do to be saved and get to heaven.What must you do to be savedSay the right things. For by thy words thou shalt be justified. Matthew 12:37Do the right things. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. John 5:29 For you render to each one according to his works. Psalm 62:12 I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10 When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. Ezekiel 18:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16.27 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Matthew 25:34-36 Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13 For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15 The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work. 1 Peter 1:17 I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13Believe the right things. A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Roman:28 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1 A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16 For by grace are ye saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8Do and believe the right things. Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:17Do the will of God. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:21Believe in Jesus. Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life John 3:36 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. Acts 16:31Be born again. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Acts 16:3Hear the words of Jesus and believe in whoever sent him. He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life. John 5:24Be born of water and the spirit. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5Be washed by the Holy Ghost. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5Be converted and become like a little child. Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3Believe and be baptized. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:16Call upon the name of the Lord. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

[Roll the Bones 74]

Confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9Follow the commandments (at least some of them). If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 19:17-19Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14Keep the commandments (at least some of them), give all your money to the poor, and follow Jesus. And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? ... Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. ...thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.Luke 18:18-22Keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12Endure to the end. He that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13Wait until you die and then get baptized. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:29Don’t judge other people. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Matthew 7:1, Lk.6:37Have lots of babies.And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. 1 Timothy 2:14-15Don’t defile yourself with women. (Be a virgin male.) ...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. Revelation 14:3-4Be given by the Father and come to the Son. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37Be chosen (predestined) by God. For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.Romans 8:29-30 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Romans 9:11 He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us ... according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5Be poor, not rich. Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:23-24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Luke 6:24 Ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. James 5:1Be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees. Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20Eat Jesus’ body and blood. Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:53-54Just ask. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.Matthew 7:7-8All you need is love. Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God. 1 John 4:7 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:26

[Roll the Bones 74]

BG, I get the prophesy thing, but really didn't the 4 guys or whoever they were simply just write a story, or a history after the fact to try and show these prophesies as coming true? Take Matthew 21-4 "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet" This was probably said in reference to Zechariah 9:9 where it is said that when the Messiah comes he will be riding an ass. So the Jews are still waiting this arrival and the Christians claim it already happened. It seems like they wrote it in order for the prophecy to be vindicated, and it is pretty odd. I mean in the process of writing them they don't seem to be able to agree on anything of importance. M and L dissagree on the virgin birth and genealogy of Jesus. Contradict each other on the "Flight into Egypt", Sermon on the Mount, the annointing of Jesus, the treachery of Judas, and Peter's denial.There are the gnostic gospels which dissagree with almost all of this and in many ways are more credible, especially the part about the old testament being avoided, "ghastly emanation of sick minds". It's all like deranged science fiction with witch doctors, sorcerers, astrology and star-predicitons. There are so many contradictions that many scholars have wrote about and can be had at any library. Jesus living followers were illiterate, they wrote nothing down and certainly weren't Christian since the books they were to read to affirm belief didn't come until much later. They had no idea anyone would even found a church on his pronouncements or that he wanted to be the founder of it.The only thing the New Testament seems to be good for is that it proves it was all man-made. There is a ton of evidence that even verses have been tampered with due to their writing style. There are many illiteracies and botched translations as well. almah which is virgin was actually just "a young woman" etc.

[BaseJester 1]

The priests in question said specifically that people of other religions could go to heaven if they were good people. This is clearly against the teaching of the Bible.

I suspect this demonstrates disbelief rather than ignorance, but I obviously wasn't there.

[BaseJester 1]

Define "famous verse". The only famous verse I know is John 3:16.

Really? John 1? The Beatitudes? "Let he who without sin caste the first stone?" The Lord's Prayer?

I'm 100% confident that even in Christian communities that any verse in Matthew 24 would be known as famous by <1% of the people.

*Shrug* OK.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

But in Matthew 10:23, he said the end would come before the gospel was preached to all the cities of Israel. In any case, this is a false prophecy since the gospel has been preached throughout the world (as Paul says in Romans 10:18) yet the world hasn’‘t ended.

The Gospel being preached to the ends of the world was not the single requirement for the end of days to begin. Just as the abomination of desolation being in the Temple is not the only requirement ( as seen later when Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the alter in the 2nd century BC. )Although Haley's Bible handbook does an amazing job of relating many of these things to events that have occurred.And Paul clearly had not reached the ends of the world, only the ends of the Roman ruled world.

Let us turn to Matthew 10:23:

When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Did the bolded statement happen, or did it not happen? No one ever said it was the "single" requirement for anything. Roll the Bones is asking, did it or did it not happen? Because it's extremely unlikely that there is a town in Israel that has zero awareness of the bible.

[speedz99 145]

I definitely believe that only followers of Christ will go to heaven, but that's isn't groundbreaking. That's Biblical.

Can this be one of those times that I say I can't believe an otherwise (mostly normal) person would believe something as obviously absurd as this? Only people who believe a story they've been told about a man dying and coming back to life because he was the son of the invisible creator and ruler of the universe will go to a place where everything is perfect when they die. How do you not read that sentence and say, "Waiiiiit a minute..."

[brvheart 1,752]

Can this be one of those times that I say I can't believe an otherwise (mostly normal) person would believe something as obviously absurd as this? Only people who believe a story they've been told about a man dying and coming back to life because he was the son of the invisible creator and ruler of the universe will go to a place where everything is perfect when they die. How do you not read that sentence and say, "Waiiiiit a minute..."

No. It's not one of those times.

[speedz99 145]

No. It's not one of those times.

Good thing I checked then. Ridiculous as it sounds, I mean it as a compliment when I say I don't understand how you specifically could think that way. I know it's a backhand (backhanded?) compliment, though that's really not my intent. I just...don't get it.