JSpencer 0 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I'm not certain which one is appropriate, so I'll post them both: Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Sparco 2 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I don't know how to do the crazy sidepot math (Sparco?)Well, doing exact side pot math in general sucks. Here is what you would have to do if you would want to do it exactly: - Consider every single hand in the short stack's range - Take that hand out of the deck in pokerstove - Stove your hand against the big stack's range - Average the resultsThe thing is that you have to consider almost every single hand that the short stack can have individually, including different suits. For example, if you have AsKh and QQ is in the short stack's range, then you will get slightly different results when you take out QsQh, QsQc or QdQc. So if you want very precise results, you have to stove for almost every individual hand, which for wide ranges gets wayyy to much work. It's about time someone wrote a program to do that (I've been giving subtle hints to VB and Q for a while now, but so far without success), but as far as I know, no such program exists at the moment.Of course, you could do a decent approximation by just taking out some QQ combo and multiplying by 6 (the number of ways in which he can have QQ), but then you would still have to do this for every type of hand in the short stack's range. If his range is QQ+, AK, that is doable; if it is the top 30% of hands it is still a mess.An even cruder approximation would be to completely forget about the short stack and just stove against the big stack's range without taking out any cards. When there is not too much correlation between the two ranges (for example, with very wide ranges like the ones in this example) that should give decent results. On the other hand, when there is a lot of correlation (for example when both ranges contain a lot of Ax combos), the result will not be too good.An extreme example: assume you have QQ and both villains will have a range which consists of exactly AK. Stoving against just AK for the side pot will give the usual 50/50 result; taking out one AK for the shorty and stoving against the other will show that you are actually a 65/35 favourite to win the side pot.As a general rule (though I'm sure exceptions can be constructed): when you have a pair, the crude approximation will give a result that is slightly too low, since the shorty's cards will often remove some of the big stack's outs. When you have two big cards, the crude approximation will give a result that is slightly too high, since the shorty's cards will often remove some of your outs. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Do I really? I find people shove late game turbos with just about any two cards. I figured often I would be up against marginal hands at best. I ended up being up against a lower pair and an ace rag, which gave me very good odds. Do you really fold 99 preflop late in a turbo when blinds are gigantic, even if a couple other people shove? Uh, don't fold the 99 pre. What are you guys talking about?its not the opener i am worried about, it is the reshover. people dont reshove light in these games. we are at best 25% but we have no need to take that kinda risk in such a soft field with this kinda stack Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 its not the opener i am worried about, it is the reshover. people dont reshove light in these games. we are at best 25% but we have no need to take that kinda risk in such a soft field with this kinda stackat BEST 25%? lol Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 11, 2010 Author Share Posted November 11, 2010 its not the opener i am worried about, it is the reshover. people dont reshove light in these games. we are at best 25% but we have no need to take that kinda risk in such a soft field with this kinda stackI completely disagree. The reshover is on the button with a generous stack. He is definitely making an ISO shove here and rarely will have a hand like 99 or 1010 dominated. If he picks up a big pair, he probably doesn't come over the top here in hopes that someone else might want to come along from the blinds. And we are talking about a 12/180 turbo here. When blinds reach 250/500 we are fairly deep into the tournament, and need to take advantage of any opportunities that arise.If a 99 shove is incorrect here, I definitely need to know why if I have to adjust my game in this area. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I completely disagree. The reshover is on the button with a generous stack. He is definitely making an ISO shove here and rarely will have a hand like 99 or 1010 dominated. If he picks up a big pair, he probably doesn't come over the top here in hopes that someone else might want to come along from the blinds. And we are talking about a 12/180 turbo here. When blinds reach 250/500 we are fairly deep into the tournament, and need to take advantage of any opportunities that arise.If a 99 shove is incorrect here, I definitely need to know why if I have to adjust my game in this area.its a personal style thing for me. if you push the 9's it is ever so slightly +ev imo. i dont like to take extremely thin spots against such weak players. the fact that the standard 2-180 player in general doesnt iso shove too light. but even if both people have 2 none similar overs, we still have marginal equity. and i think with this kinda stack we will have plenty of spots to take down pots and keep things alive a lot longer imo. a push is probably +ev. but it is extremely variant. i dont like to take too much variance with this kind stack size. its just how i have been taught to play against weak fields. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I disagree that JJ+ is regularly out of his range.I agree that 99 is still a call here. Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 11, 2010 Author Share Posted November 11, 2010 its a personal style thing for me. if you push the 9's it is ever so slightly +ev imo. i dont like to take extremely thin spots against such weak players. the fact that the standard 2-180 player in general doesnt iso shove too light. but even if both people have 2 none similar overs, we still have marginal equity. and i think with this kinda stack we will have plenty of spots to take down pots and keep things alive a lot longer imo. a push is probably +ev. but it is extremely variant. i dont like to take too much variance with this kind stack size. its just how i have been taught to play against weak fields.Yeah I see your point. My problem is that if I pass up on this opportunity, often times I won't get any similarly premium hands till I'm practically blinded off. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 99 is def a call Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Yeah I see your point. My problem is that if I pass up on this opportunity, often times I won't get any similarly premium hands till I'm practically blinded off.you dont need a big hand to shove pre with blinds and antes. just the right stack and be opening the pot. even better if you are in later position. you need to try and fina a good push chart. this is an old one i did a few months ago but i dont love it but it will give an idea of shortstack play. you dont need a great hand. here is my pushchart from dc. it is slightly wrong bc i dont always shove ATC 10 BB or less any more but i would say top 60% at least. http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/25-Tou...T#posts-1906611i would be more inclined to push in a tougher field and against stronger villains who may call correctly short and take some of that edge away. Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 12, 2010 Author Share Posted November 12, 2010 you dont need a big hand to shove pre with blinds and antes. just the right stack and be opening the pot. even better if you are in later position. you need to try and fina a good push chart. this is an old one i did a few months ago but i dont love it but it will give an idea of shortstack play. you dont need a great hand. here is my pushchart from dc. it is slightly wrong bc i dont always shove ATC 10 BB or less any more but i would say top 60% at least. http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/25-Tou...T#posts-1906611i would be more inclined to push in a tougher field and against stronger villains who may call correctly short and take some of that edge away.Good insight in that link. I'm going to bed now but I'll have to give it a more thorough reading when I get the chance. Didn't play at all today as I find that I have a tendency to lose money after a decent cash. For some people a cooling off period is needed if they are losing alot, but for me I think I need a cooling off period when I win. I guess it's a bankroll management issue in that I get too overconfident when I win big, and just spew SNG buyins and tourney buyins. Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 Currently only playing the DNG Sunday Special, sitting at about average, hitting the bubble soon.Tournament #339010577 Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Mincashed but played well. Lost all in AQ vs 1010, had I won I woulda been in a good position to run deep. Oh well I felt good; I'll get em next time.. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Mincashed but played well. Lost all in AQ vs 1010, had I won I woulda been in a good position to run deep. Oh well I felt good; I'll get em next time..tourny variance is a bitch. i busted a tourny today (10 on AP) shoving my AJ off and 13 BB over a min open OTB, i was SB, he tank called with 87 off and hit. it happens. :)at least you lost to a decent preflop hand Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 tourny variance is a bitch. i busted a tourny today (10 on AP) shoving my AJ off and 13 BB over a min open OTB, i was SB, he tank called with 87 off and hit. it happens. :)at least you lost to a decent preflop handYeah those are a real pain in the ass. Also, got out on a terrible cooler in a $27.50 turbo MTT. I was sitting at about average when the following hand came up. It was all pretty standard play, don't think there's a possible way I can get out of it. Also, I was on pace to cash it too, had I played conservative and folded most of my hands. I wanted to play aggressive though because I know I have to if I wanna run deep, especially in turbos.Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($25.00+$2.50) t350/t700 ante t85 - 9 playersButton: t10,309 SB: t4,613 BB: t12,557 UTG: t20,510 UTG+1: t10,465 MP: t8,935 MP2: t10,520 HJ: t9,910 (Hero)CO: t24,525 Preflop: (t1,815) Hero is HJ with (9 players)4 folds, Hero raises to t1400, CO folds, Button calls t1400, SB folds, BB calls t700Flop: (t5,315) :D (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets t2100, Button raises to t5600, BB folds, Hero raises to t8425 and is all-in, Button calls t2825Turn: (t22,165) (2 players)River: (t22,165) (2 players)Button showed , and won (22165) with a full house, Fours full of DeucesHero showed , and lost with a full house, Threes full of DeucesButton won t22165So yeah... Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 By far your best option with the 33 there is to just go all in initially.Raising can leave you in a ton of icky spots. Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 By far your best option with the 33 there is to just go all in initially.Raising can leave you in a ton of icky spots.Noted, thanks for the advice. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 By far your best option with the 33 there is to just go all in initially.Raising can leave you in a ton of icky spots.yah im shipping pretty wide there. any PP, most A except off suit weak kickers, and some KQ,KJ,K10 hands. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Yeah those are a real pain in the ass. Also, got out on a terrible cooler in a $27.50 turbo MTT. I was sitting at about average when the following hand came up. It was all pretty standard play, don't think there's a possible way I can get out of it. Also, I was on pace to cash it too, had I played conservative and folded most of my hands. I wanted to play aggressive though because I know I have to if I wanna run deep, especially in turbos.Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($25.00+$2.50) t350/t700 ante t85 - 9 playersButton: t10,309 SB: t4,613 BB: t12,557 UTG: t20,510 UTG+1: t10,465 MP: t8,935 MP2: t10,520 HJ: t9,910 (Hero)CO: t24,525 Preflop: (t1,815) Hero is HJ with (9 players)4 folds, Hero raises to t1400, CO folds, Button calls t1400, SB folds, BB calls t700Flop: (t5,315) :D (3 players)BB checks, Hero bets t2100, Button raises to t5600, BB folds, Hero raises to t8425 and is all-in, Button calls t2825Turn: (t22,165) (2 players)River: (t22,165) (2 players)Button showed , and won (22165) with a full house, Fours full of DeucesHero showed , and lost with a full house, Threes full of DeucesButton won t22165So yeah... the only time im inducing here is PP so big that almost all flops are safe, like QQ+ Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 the only time im inducing here is PP so big that almost all flops are safe, like QQ+Well my thought was I just wanted to steal the blinds, and if someone came over the top of me preflop I would fold. Reason being I wanted to still leave myself in a position to make the money if I ran into someone with a real hand. But I see the flaw in that reasoning. I should just disregard the bubble being close, right? Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Well my thought was I just wanted to steal the blinds, and if someone came over the top of me preflop I would fold. Reason being I wanted to still leave myself in a position to make the money if I ran into someone with a real hand. But I see the flaw in that reasoning. I should just disregard the bubble being close, right?dont steal the blinds with this stack unless you are folded to OTB or BVB. then min. because we can still play a little postflop if we are IP. Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 dont steal the blinds with this stack unless you are folded to OTB or BVB. then min. because we can still play a little postflop if we are IP.Yeah, that was my thought on HJ. It isn't optimal position, but the button was a tight player and I knew he wasn't gunna come along unless he had a good hand; 44 was probably the worst of his range. I was hoping to get the blinds or play against one of them, because in most situations I could Cbet the flop and take it down, I just got unlucky that the button had a calling hand. But in hindsight I guess shoving would be best. Obviously had I shoved the button would fold, as well as everyone else. But, obviously, I couldn't have forseen things to turn out how they did. Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 Alright I'm gunna be grinding a 22+R, 55, and a 12/180 tonight. Link to post Share on other sites
tbrick412 0 Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
FaTa10ne 0 Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 good luck!Frustrating finish to the 22+R. I had like 13BBs when UTG shoved for 12BBs and I reshoved with AK. He had 103 and hit a 3 on the river to basically knock me out - had I won the hand I could've coasted to the money. So gross when that shit happens.12/180 I didn't cash.$55 I cashed for like $60 profit.Everytime I look at the prizepool to one of those tournaments it seems like a dream to imagine winning 1st for like 15-20k, like I can't imagine how sick that would feel. Hopefully one day I'll experience it; I feel I'm playing well and I know I'm learning tons from you guys, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now