Correct Play As Big Stack?

[SuperJon 175]

These situations come along very rarely for me, but when they do, I'm never completely sure how to act.What should my range be to open shove here?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.10 Tournament, 500/1000 Blinds 125 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB (t15025)BB (t13585)UTG (t11847)UTG+1 (t27405)MP1 (t17882)MP2 (t446)MP3 (t53763)CO (t11195)Hero (Button) (t73664)Hero's M: 28.06Preflop: Hero is Button with 2 , 2 5 folds, CO calls t1000, Hero bets t73539 (All-In), 3 foldsTotal pot: t4625

[SwolyswoND 1]

Meh, effective stacks are 15 BBs here, which is too high for me to be shoving (and btw this isnt an open shove, it's over a limper) over one limper with 22. Yes it's unlikely SB/BB/CO wake up with a hand and call you here, but I just think it's risking too much for the return.Not that I'm advocating a fold, though. I actually think a normal raise to 5k looks stronger than the shove, because villains should know you are pot committed and won't repop weak, and they certainly won't be flatting. Whereas if you shove it looks like you just want the blinds, and someone might just say "eff that guy" and call with 33/44/A9/AT. Whereas if we raise to 5k I think at least some portion of the time those hands fold.

[Dhall901 0]

Meh..I wouldn't put the guy all-in with pocket 2s. This is a coinflip for 1/7 of your stack. Not worth it.

[bigbluffzinc 0]

Shove is correct, at these stakes people do not disguise or trap thinking deep at all.. if he's in the cut off and he limps he's either got AA and was scared of folding out the blinds or he has JT or some other drawing hand... if villain is playing proper abc tight poker then ill muck it, if not im putting him on a drawing hand as is usually the case and I'm shoving 100% of the time knowing that theres equity in a fold and im flipping worst case scenario.. and if the blinds wake up with a hand if its 77 or below they will likely muck due to a limp + a shove... them calling is just poker...

[Fade2241 0]

Meh..I wouldn't put the guy all-in with pocket 2s. This is a coinflip for 1/7 of your stack. Not worth it.

I disagree with this thinking completely. You are 100% assuming he's going to call - the whole point of the shove is to pick up the dead money sitting out there. Hero played this fine and he's probably posting it because he got stung by a slowplay or something. 100% standard with that stack size.

[TrueAce13 18]

I like the move to get the dead money in the pot. At these stacks, limps are almost always weak and will fold to a shove. The SB and BB then just have to wake up with an actual hand to make a call, though this is a 1.10 tourny, so they might be calling with A5o and flipping. I think it is a little close, but I like it

[SwolyswoND 1]

So you guys are okay with risking 15000 to win 3.5k?Let's look at this a little. If you get called youre probably about 60% a coin flip and 40% a 4:1 dog. I think calling an overshove like that someones range will be weighted more toward mid-high pairs than unpaired hands like two Broadway. Without knowing blinds' tendencies, let's assign a calling range of 66+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo. I also think we can slightly discount the AT, KJ, and KQ, I think those call about 50% of the time. Our equity vs. the remaining range (I dont have Stove here this is an approximation) - 6 combos of each PP, so 48 combos of PP total, and 16 combos each of the unpaired so approximately 72 combos (48 of AJ+, 24 of AT/KQ/KJ as I discounted them). so 1/3 of the time you are a 4:1 dog, and the other 2/3 of the time you're a 13:12 favorite.That should give us an equity of about 41%, which could be even lower if villains call 33/44/55 or fold AT/KQ/KJ more often.I don't know how to do the math from here to figure out how often villains 1-3 have to fold to make this +EV, and then add in the $EV considerations that we are risking 17% of our stack to add like 4-5% to it, and I don't think this is smart at all.

[potatoman 0]

Meh, effective stacks are 15 BBs here, which is too high for me to be shoving (and btw this isnt an open shove, it's over a limper) over one limper with 22. Yes it's unlikely SB/BB/CO wake up with a hand and call you here, but I just think it's risking too much for the return.Not that I'm advocating a fold, though. I actually think a normal raise to 5k looks stronger than the shove, because villains should know you are pot committed and won't repop weak, and they certainly won't be flatting. Whereas if you shove it looks like you just want the blinds, and someone might just say "eff that guy" and call with 33/44/A9/AT. Whereas if we raise to 5k I think at least some portion of the time those hands fold.

I think I like this better than shoving. Just be consistent.Repop range, depends on table, position and opponent, but 88+, AK, AQs would be fine. Against some opponents, ATC's is fine if you don't expect to get played back at very often.

[Dhall901 0]

I disagree with this thinking completely. You are 100% assuming he's going to call - the whole point of the shove is to pick up the dead money sitting out there. Hero played this fine and he's probably posting it because he got stung by a slowplay or something. 100% standard with that stack size.

Ok, let's think about this. CO's M is a little over 6. If he's a decent poker player he's looking to move all-in very soon. However the fact that he's limping into the pot with his stack size leads me to believe he is rather weak. A weak player with a weak hand. I like a raise from the button with the big stack. I'm just saying a std raise will do the job just as well, no need to get all excited with the bet slider. You can throw a bet of 5k out there to get rid of the blinds and essentially do the same thing and still have some fold equity.

[SwolyswoND 1]

You can throw a bet of 5k out there to get rid of the blinds and essentially do the same thing and still have some fold equity.

This is a BRILLIANT idea! Someone really smart must have thought of this.

[mk 11]

You can throw a bet of 5k out there to get rid of the blinds and essentially do the same thing and still have some fold equity.

i don't think you understand what fold equity is.

[Fade2241 0]

Ok, let's think about this. CO's M is a little over 6. If he's a decent poker player he's looking to move all-in very soon. However the fact that he's limping into the pot with his stack size leads me to believe he is rather weak. A weak player with a weak hand. I like a raise from the button with the big stack. I'm just saying a std raise will do the job just as well, no need to get all excited with the bet slider. You can throw a bet of 5k out there to get rid of the blinds and essentially do the same thing and still have some fold equity.

GTFO of here with this fold equity talk - So are you going to fold if he reshoves for $6k more holding a pp? That's retarded. He could also smooth call your $5k bet and put you in a difficult spot post flop. Shoving takes that guess work out of it as well as puts him to a decision for ALL his chips (and anyone else who plays, for that matter.) It's silly to make things harder on yourself. I am def rite - Shove this if you are going to play it.

[Tehtoe 3]

Fade is pretty much spot on, LOL @ r/f w/ 15 bb effective stacks.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Who said anything about r/f? You're calling if repopped. The reason to raise to 5k is it looks stronger than the shove, so hands like 33/44/A9 are less likely to call. And LOL at you Fade if you think anyone is flatting half their stack. Come on now.

[Fade2241 0]

Who said anything about r/f? You're calling if repopped. The reason to raise to 5k is it looks stronger than the shove, so hands like 33/44/A9 are less likely to call. And LOL at you Fade if you think anyone is flatting half their stack. Come on now.

This Dhall person was talking about EXACTLY that. And people do call half their stacks pf in donkaments with buy-ins such as the exampled HH with hands like overs, etc. It doesn't happen a lot but you're def setting yourself up for it with this type of a raise and 22 is not a hand you want to do that with.I'm done e-fighting about this. I am right, period. If you really care, I have decent tourney stats to back it up - just search my stars name, ThePayne04. I'm not some random donk.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Well, youre not right, as I showed above with math. I don't really care about your tourney stats, and I'm not going to get into a whipping out contest again as I did about a month ago. I never said you were some random donk, but you are wrong here.And no, no one flats half their stack pre except maybe trying to trap with AA/KK.

[SuperJon 175]

Who said anything about r/f? You're calling if repopped. The reason to raise to 5k is it looks stronger than the shove, so hands like 33/44/A9 are less likely to call. And LOL at you Fade if you think anyone is flatting half their stack. Come on now.

Yeah, but those hands may also shove if I just raise. In which case I would have to call.

[SwolyswoND 1]

It's very doubtful someone shoves 33/44/A9 over a 5x open over a limper. They know you're committed, which takes away a lot of the value of shoving 33/44.

[Dhall901 0]

Just to clarify: I said that you should throw out a bet THEN re-evalute your position based on the play behind. What if one of the blinds picks up a hand? Then you donate chips unnecessarily IMO. This kid fade seems very certain of the correct play...it's poker. Part of the beauty of the game is that every hand is a singular event with different options to use. Some people like to play smallball some people like to play bingo. I've always believed the point of NL holdem is to NOT go all-in..meh. Let's not forget why we are a part of this forum. To share ideas and gain information about how others play the game.That being said...I'm right.

[Tehtoe 3]

Just to clarify: I said that you should throw out a bet THEN re-evalute your position based on the play behind. What if one of the blinds picks up a hand? Then you donate chips unnecessarily IMO. This kid fade seems very certain of the correct play...it's poker. Part of the beauty of the game is that every hand is a singular event with different options to use. Some people like to play smallball some people like to play bingo. I've always believed the point of NL holdem is to NOT go all-in..meh. Let's not forget why we are a part of this forum. To share ideas and gain information about how others play the game.That being said...I'm right.

sigh.The point of tournaments is to push and exploit every edge available to us, the stack sizes here are perfect for doing so.

[BeaverStyle 1]

Just to clarify: I said that you should throw out a bet THEN re-evalute your position based on the play behind. What if one of the blinds picks up a hand? Then you donate chips unnecessarily IMO. This kid fade seems very certain of the correct play...it's poker. Part of the beauty of the game is that every hand is a singular event with different options to use. Some people like to play smallball some people like to play bingo. I've always believed the point of NL holdem is to NOT go all-in..meh. Let's not forget why we are a part of this forum. To share ideas and gain information about how others play the game.That being said...I'm right.

First bolded sentence: WATNext 3 sentences: Contradict yourself much?

[Fade2241 0]

sigh.The point of tournaments is to push and exploit every edge available to us, the stack sizes here are perfect for doing so.

First bolded sentence: WATNext 3 sentences: Contradict yourself much?

Give it up boys, we aren't going to win. There obv the forum experts, we know jack sheet! GJ on your huge score btw, tehtoe! & obv <3 you BeavHave fun with your fold equity and not going all in Swolyswo and Dhall.

[SwolyswoND 1]

You don't listen at all Fade. The reason for raising instead of shoving is that youre committed enough to call if someone repops you (which means they would have called your shove), but it looks stronger so there is at least a chance that 33/44/A9/A8/AT/KQ/KJ fold. Which is really what you want. No one is ever ever ever just flatting your 5x open here, so there is no risk.If you can dispute any of the above with actual facts or analysis instead of just proclaiming you're right and trying to flaunt tourney stats, then maybe we can have a discussion. But if you're going to proclaim me the forum moron, perhaps you might want to check my stats before you do so.

[BeaverStyle 1]

You don't listen at all Fade. The reason for raising instead of shoving is that youre committed enough to call if someone repops you (which means they would have called your shove), but it looks stronger so there is at least a chance that 33/44/A9/A8/AT/KQ/KJ fold. Which is really what you want. No one is ever ever ever just flatting your 5x open here, so there is no risk.If you can dispute any of the above with actual facts or analysis instead of just proclaiming you're right and trying to flaunt tourney stats, then maybe we can have a discussion. But if you're going to proclaim me the forum moron, perhaps you might want to check my stats before you do so.

The bolded part is absolutely not always true. Hence the reason for the optimal line of shoving. There are other reasons too, but you seem to fail to accept them.Feel free to play whatever style you like, but the play you are advocating is dangerously exploitable, and if someone resteals w/ overs here (which wouldn't happen if we shove) then we're 50/50 or racing for a large pot. Since we're calling anyway, why not shove to discourage a resteal and get those overs/small pairs to fold?

[SwolyswoND 1]

What hands repop us for 6k more (after we have already put in 5k) that would not have called the shove? They have to know you are calling, so if they do this with 33/44/Ace-medium/KJ type hands, then they were going to call your shove with it anyway. And in my opinion, which may or not be shared, I think the shove looks much weaker than the normal raise - it looks like you just want the blinds - so you would get looked up wider.