Tehtoe Has Said Something About A Ft

[JSpencer 0]

Sigh...I don't really understand how the math is wrong nor how this is a profitable move..but it's pretty much already been argued up the wazoo and there's really no point in continuing it. So I guess I'll just drop it.Regardless, good job making it to the FT

[Vtlaxer09 4]

lol at willing to accept an all in preflop with 56 o

[TrueAce13 18]

lol at willing to accept an all in preflop with 56 o

Without seeing a flop

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Sigh...I don't really understand how the math is wrong nor how this is a profitable move..but it's pretty much already been argued up the wazoo and there's really no point in continuing it. So I guess I'll just drop it.Regardless, good job making it to the FT

Let me try to make the math easier for you. I will use a hypothetical situation (Since the raw HH isn't in this thread)The math will prob be closer to correct, since last night I was tired and rushing through.I am going to assume 7-handed with blinds 5k/10k/1k GMJ has 190k, BB has 130kTherefore GMJ has 1k ante and 5k SB in the pot right now. So when folded to him, if he folds, he loses 6k. Now, if he shoves, 65% of the time BB folds and he gets the 7k in antes, 10k from the BB and his 5k back (22k return) but 6k of it was his so 16k profit.If he gets called, he wins 38% of the time and loses 62% of the time.When he wins he will win a pot of 267k but 131k is his, so 136k profit. When he loses, he will lose 131k.So when doing a formula for it all, you do 14k*65% + 136k*35%*38% - 131k*35%*62%or cleaner looking: 14k(.65)+136k(.35*.38)-131k(.35*.62)= -1,239 chipsSo if he folds every time in that situation, he loses 6k chips, if he shoves every time in that situation, and the BB calls ONLY with that range, he will only lose 1,239 chips.Therefore from a math standpoint he should shove 65 every time there.Add in the fact that (as GMJ said) the BB may not call that wide of a range, it might be tighter, and GMJs shove becomes even more profitable.Hopefully you can understand this math and see that your math was wrong now.

[Gallo 1]

Sigh...I don't really understand how the math is wrong nor how this is a profitable move..but it's pretty much already been argued up the wazoo and there's really no point in continuing it. So I guess I'll just drop it.Regardless, good job making it to the FT

This is actually good that this is being discussed, this is the only way to learn, ask questions. So please don't drop it just because it's frustrating.

[Gallo 1]

Without seeing a floop

fyp

[GrinderMJ 0]

This is actually good that this is being discussed, this is the only way to learn, ask questions. So please don't drop it just because it's frustrating.

I don't want to be rude but at this point, there should literally be no more questions. The math has been posted at least 5 different times in as clear cut a manner as possible, with all the variables spelled out.

[GWCGWC 83]

You could look at this another way. You have a shitty hand = fold. Better yet, you have a shitty hand so complete and then fold to the BB's shove. There is no such thing as the long run in poker, especially mtt's, and equities will never ever never ever never be realized in this situation. Only play the cards that you get dealt and if you play enough mtt's you'll eventually win 15 flips in a row and make a top 5. Eventually can be a really long time.

[JSpencer 0]

I don't want to be rude but at this point, there should literally be no more questions. The math has been posted at least 5 different times in as clear cut a manner as possible, with all the variables spelled out.

No, you aren't being rude at all, and I actually appreciate you taking the time out to discuss it and to explain your logic. I was basing my math off of a VERY simplified situation to try to get my point across in a clear and concise manner that would be simple to understand. Putting antes, stack sizes, calling range, short handed table, ect..ect...mathematically, you might be right, and it may be profitable to call. However...my main concern is

Therefore GMJ has 1k ante and 5k SB in the pot right now. So when folded to him, if he folds, he loses 6k.Now, if he shoves, 65% of the time BB folds and he gets the 7k in antes, 10k from the BB and his 5k back (22k return) but 6k of it was his so 16k profit.If he gets called, he wins 38% of the time and loses 62% of the time.When he wins he will win a pot of 267k but 131k is his, so 136k profit.When he loses, he will lose 131k.

Taking everything into account....65% of the time the BB will fold (perhaps more, well even say 70%), which results in him getting the 7k in antes, 10k from the BB, and his own 5k back for 22k. If we run this 8x with 7 successes of the BB folding we have a total of 154,000 profit (I'm considering your SB profit as well since you stood to lose them otherwise. Total SB value would be 35k). The 1 failure results in a 38% chance of gain vs a 62% chance of loss. Technically, you don't stand to lose any more than you've already earned employing this technique, and at the worst case scenario, you still have a 20k(ish) profit if you happen to lose.I'm assuming that this is what people are trying to get across. It certainly is profitable to shove in this position, but my main beef is shoving with a hand that leaves you as the underdog when that inevitable call hits. It may be profitable in the long run, but you only have so many chips..If you could run as many trials as you pleased, more than likely, you would break even. But if you happen to hit that 30% early, the whole process falls apart..as you now have only 6BB's left. Flip a penny three times and it's not crazy impossible for it to land on tails three times.

[armen13 0]

gg guys

[GrinderMJ 0]

No, you aren't being rude at all, and I actually appreciate you taking the time out to discuss it and to explain your logic. I was basing my math off of a VERY simplified situation to try to get my point across in a clear and concise manner that would be simple to understand. Putting antes, stack sizes, calling range, short handed table, ect..ect...mathematically, you might be right, and it may be profitable to call. However...my main concern isTaking everything into account....65% of the time the BB will fold (perhaps more, well even say 70%), which results in him getting the 7k in antes, 10k from the BB, and his own 5k back for 22k. If we run this 8x with 7 successes of the BB folding we have a total of 154,000 profit (I'm considering your SB profit as well since you stood to lose them otherwise. Total SB value would be 35k). The 1 failure results in a 38% chance of gain vs a 62% chance of loss. Technically, you don't stand to lose any more than you've already earned employing this technique, and at the worst case scenario, you still have a 20k(ish) profit if you happen to lose.I'm assuming that this is what people are trying to get across. It certainly is profitable to shove in this position, but my main beef is shoving with a hand that leaves you as the underdog when that inevitable call hits. It may be profitable in the long run, but you only have so many chips..If you could run as many trials as you pleased, more than likely, you would break even. But if you happen to hit that 30% early, the whole process falls apart..as you now have only 6BB's left. Flip a penny three times and it's not crazy impossible for it to land on tails three times.

You can't always get the money in ahead when you're all in. A good quote for tourney poker is from shaundeeb: "If you're not getting it in behind, you're not getting it in enough"

[Pivvy2001 0]

It certainly is profitable to shove in this position, but my main beef is shoving with a hand that leaves you as the underdog when that inevitable call hits. It may be profitable in the long run, but you only have so many chips..If you could run as many trials as you pleased, more than likely, you would break even. But if you happen to hit that 30% early, the whole process falls apart..as you now have only 6BB's left. Flip a penny three times and it's not crazy impossible for it to land on tails three times.

If you are in agreement that it is profitable to shove in this position, what is the gripe regarding the inevitable call. When you go all in preflop with kings you will inevitably end up against aces sometimes too. The idea is to make plays that are profitable in the long term. What the numbers have shown is that Grinder makes money long term with this same play. That includes the times when it does not work out well. The "it may be profitable in the long run, but you only have so many chips" completely overlooks the fact that the long run is over many hundreds and thousands of tournaments. Not in any one given tournament. Grinder is attempting to play high level poker consistently and that means that some profitable moves will cost him money in a given situation (those times when he is called). However, over the long run and with the volume he plays it is a profitable play. Don't think about this in terms of what happens if it doesn't work out in one tournament. Think about it in terms of the actual long run.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

^ ^ ^Pretty much that.JSpencer, you seem to have the desire to learn, and I like seeing that. You are generally well-spoken and basically all you need to do to make that next step is to apply what you are reading here. GMJ is a super-sicko so take the advice he is giving here to heart and learn from it.

[JSpencer 0]

If you are in agreement that it is profitable to shove in this position, what is the gripe regarding the inevitable call. When you go all in preflop with kings you will inevitably end up against aces sometimes too. The idea is to make plays that are profitable in the long term. What the numbers have shown is that Grinder makes money long term with this same play. That includes the times when it does not work out well. The "it may be profitable in the long run, but you only have so many chips" completely overlooks the fact that the long run is over many hundreds and thousands of tournaments. Not in any one given tournament. Grinder is attempting to play high level poker consistently and that means that some profitable moves will cost him money in a given situation (those times when he is called). However, over the long run and with the volume he plays it is a profitable play. Don't think about this in terms of what happens if it doesn't work out in one tournament. Think about it in terms of the actual long run.

Ugh, I understand that. I think the main issue is to be perfectly honest, I find the idea of 5 figure tournament final tables quite intimidating and would be unable to take such risks with so much money on the line...The points are well taken though.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Ugh, I understand that. I think the main issue is to be perfectly honest, I find the idea of 5 figure tournament final tables quite intimidating and would be unable to take such risks with so much money on the line...The points are well taken though.

That's called "playing as scared money"For GMJ it is all part of the job. He knows in the future he will be at big tourneys like this again and will have another chance.For some people, playing to move up isn't always a bad thing.If I sattied into a WSOP event and made a final table, I would DEFINITELY be weary of prize jumps. I may pass up more SLIGHTLY +ev plays for the chance of moving up one spot and making an additional 80k, because 80k would be a big deal to me.Put me at a FT of a $33 tourney online and I am trying to find +ev plays...period.

[Ship_itt 0]

it is sad that a hand that is 23130998098% standard, has gone into this deep of a discussion. it really makes me sick to my stomach. on a brighter note, the kid who won this tourney was sitting in my living room at the time (gay brag) gg tehtoe and GMJ...

[Gallo 1]

You can't always get the money in ahead when you're all in. A good quote for tourney poker is from shaundeeb: "If you're not getting it in behind, you're not getting it in enough"

Then why haven't I won more tournies dangit!!

JSpencer, you seem to have the desire to learn, and I like seeing that. You are generally well-spoken and basically all you need to do to make that next step is to apply what you are reading here. GMJ is a super-sicko so take the advice he is giving here to heart and learn from it.

^^^^That and this

it is sad that a hand that is 23130998098% standard, has gone into this deep of a discussion. it really makes me sick to my stomach. on a brighter note, the kid who won this tourney was sitting in my living room at the time (gay brag) gg tehtoe and GMJ...

Dunno why it makes you sick, Spencer just wants to learn and the best way is to ask questions, maybe he doesn't get it now, but as long as he wants to learn it will eventually come to him.Some people have to understand that what may seem super-standard to those that play high volume of MTTs is not so super-standard to others. That's why people come here to learn, for the most part at least.

[Ship_itt 0]

Then why haven't I won more tournies dangit!! ^^^^That and thisDunno why it makes you sick, Spencer just wants to learn and the best way is to ask questions, maybe he doesn't get it now, but as long as he wants to learn it will eventually come to him.Some people have to understand that what may seem super-standard to those that play high volume of MTTs is not so super-standard to others. That's why people come here to learn, for the most part at least.

and thats fine..but come on, this is beyond ridiculous...how many times does someone have to lay it out for him to understand it? it really is embarassing that the discussion went this far, whether the play was standard or not..he obviously doesnt wanna learn when he is presented all the facts, tons of knowledge from a GREAT mtter and other members, and still seems to argue the play and cant grasp the concept that its not even a marginal spot..

[mase_gotsem 0]

You can't always get the money in ahead when you're all in. A good quote for tourney poker is from shaundeeb: "If you're not getting it in behind, you're not getting it in enough"

awsome /topic

[pokerfriendly 0]

That's called "playing as scared money"For GMJ it is all part of the job. He knows in the future he will be at big tourneys like this again and will have another chance.For some people, playing to move up isn't always a bad thing.If I sattied into a WSOP event and made a final table, I would DEFINITELY be weary of prize jumps. I may pass up more SLIGHTLY +ev plays for the chance of moving up one spot and making an additional 80k, because 80k would be a big deal to me.Put me at a FT of a $33 tourney online and I am trying to find +ev plays...period.

Well said ...JSpencer got some balls though...lol i like him this kind of advice is priceless....