Because Bush's Invasions Of Privacy Weren't Enough

[El Guapo 8]

Well, no, since the ratio of users to distributors is very high. That's like saying they should be able to search the computers of all internet users because some people use the internet for child porn. And your argument is another reason why it is ridiculous to outlaw peaceful consensual behavior. It creates incentives for police to go searching for crimes, since there is no victim to report the crime. And the only way to search for crimes in the absence of a victim is to intrude on people's right to privacy.If the person is under the influence, arrest them. The drugs/alcohol in the car isn't our concern, it's the ones in their body while driving that are a problem.

I had a feeling you would respond this way. But since having drugs is illegal, for any reason, then they should be allowed to search for them.

[hblask 1]

But that is basically writing a blank check to the police to do whatever they want to whoever they want. If we lived in a world where police were sane, stable, nice people, such a policy would be relatively harmless.In the real world, cops are.... well, cops.

[El Guapo 8]

But that is basically writing a blank check to the police to do whatever they want to whoever they want. If we lived in a world where police were sane, stable, nice people, such a policy would be relatively harmless.In the real world, cops are.... well, cops.

I am still not understanding your logic here. If you are caught doing something illegal in your vehicle, you are saying the police don't have a right to look in your vehicle for other illegal items, that may coincide with the illegal activity that you are already taking place in? How is that?

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

I had a feeling you would respond this way. But since having drugs is illegal, for any reason, then they should be allowed to search for them.

what?

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

I am still not understanding your logic here. If you are caught doing something illegal in your vehicle, you are saying the police don't have a right to look in your vehicle for other illegal items, that may coincide with the illegal activity that you are already taking place in? How is that?

If you're speeding, should they be allowed to search your vehicle? How about if you have expired insurance tags? Fender bender?

[Sal Paradise 57]

I am still not understanding your logic here. If you are caught doing something illegal in your vehicle, you are saying the police don't have a right to look in your vehicle for other illegal items, that may coincide with the illegal activity that you are already taking place in? How is that?

so if you're caught speeding, should they be able to search your car then? could be on uppers. what about not wearing your seat belt? might be on pot and confused. like h said, it's giving them a blank check and it's absolutely a great thing that it's no longer available.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

so if you're caught speeding, should they be able to search your car then? could be on uppers. what about not wearing your seat belt? might be on pot and confused. like h said, it's giving them a blank check and it's absolutely a great thing that it's no longer available.

great point!licence expired? could be an identity thief!

[El Guapo 8]

If you're speeding, should they be allowed to search your vehicle? How about if you have expired insurance tags? Fender bender?

so if you're caught speeding, should they be able to search your car then? could be on uppers. what about not wearing your seat belt? might be on pot and confused. like h said, it's giving them a blank check and it's absolutely a great thing that it's no longer available.

What the hell are you two talking about? I said DWI, which is a Felony. Speeding is a traffic related mis-demeanor.

[hblask 1]

I am still not understanding your logic here. If you are caught doing something illegal in your vehicle, you are saying the police don't have a right to look in your vehicle for other illegal items, that may coincide with the illegal activity that you are already taking place in? How is that?

Because the typical case is someone is stopped for an alcohol violation, and if the person is "the wrong type", then their car is searched for drugs or weapons. In other words, it is not valid police work, it is a fishing expedition used mainly against those with the least power. The police use any loophole they can to pursue their agenda, by using contorted logic. This is why limits on police power are so important.If they suspect someone of having illegal drugs in the car, they should obey the constitution and get a warrant to look for the drugs. They don't want to do this because they know they are way out of bounds on this one, because no judge with a brain would ever allow cops to search everyone that a cop feels like accusing of a victimless crime.Also, the search-whenever-the-cop-wants theory is an invitation to police corruption to plant evidence, since the cop can deal with those damn minorities efficiently, and maybe even get commendations for their good police work at catching another evil drug user, without any fear of a honest cop being on the scene to report the misdeed.Our civil rights are too important to be left to the whim of some low-level grunt with a badge and an attitude.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

What the hell are you two talking about? I said DWI, which is a Felony. Speeding is a traffic related mis-demeanor.

oh, so if you're caught speeding, they should only be allowed to look for evidence of other misdemeanor offences?

[El Guapo 8]

Because the typical case is someone is stopped for an alcohol violation, and if the person is "the wrong type", then their car is searched for drugs or weapons. In other words, it is not valid police work, it is a fishing expedition used mainly against those with the least power. The police use any loophole they can to pursue their agenda, by using contorted logic. This is why limits on police power are so important.If they suspect someone of having illegal drugs in the car, they should obey the constitution and get a warrant to look for the drugs. They don't want to do this because they know they are way out of bounds on this one, because no judge with a brain would ever allow cops to search everyone that a cop feels like accusing of a victimless crime.Also, the search-whenever-the-cop-wants theory is an invitation to police corruption to plant evidence, since the cop can deal with those damn minorities efficiently, and maybe even get commendations for their good police work at catching another evil drug user, without any fear of a honest cop being on the scene to report the misdeed.Our civil rights are too important to be left to the whim of some low-level grunt with a badge and an attitude.

You've been watching too many bad cop movies. And if you arrested for any felony while operating a vehicle, IMO, the vehicle is fair game to be searched.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

You've been watching too many bad cop movies. And if you arrested for any felony while operating a vehicle, IMO, the vehicle is fair game to be searched.

why? simply to look for other crimes to add to the arrest? because the cop has reason to believe that this person may be predisposed to commit crimes? not trying to be argumentative here, but why exactly? and if we were to agree that yes, a DWI stop should lead to a search which finds drugs, should they be able to prosecute that? what if they found evidence of an unrelated crime - should they be allowed to prosecute that?

[hblask 1]

You've been watching too many bad cop movies. And if you arrested for any felony while operating a vehicle, IMO, the vehicle is fair game to be searched.

So now you seem to be back to the notion that if you are accused -- not convicted, accused -- of any crime, then you lose all expectation of privacy in your life? Can they take your computer back to the station? After all, if you smoked a joint, it's possible that you kept a record of that purchase in an Excel file on the laptop. Or maybe it has the locations of the where you stash your drugs. And you might have just deleted it, so they need to do a full disk search, including deleted files.Also, you might be hiding more joints in a balloon in your rectum, so of course they need to do a cavity search, right?Also, you might have just met your spouse and passed the contraband to the spouse, so now they need to go to your house to have your spouse subject to the same treatment?Are you OK with this? For being accused but not convicted of smoking a joint? After all, drugs are illegal.

[strategy 4]

you would be amazed at how much things vary from state to state (so your question is not so dumb).For instance, Texas allows you to have an open container in the car (as long as you are below the legal limit). In some (most) states, an open container will put you in handcuffs. In Florida, if a passenger has an open container, then he (the passengeer) gets a very small fine and the driver is ok. In some states, a passenger's open container will spell huge trouble for the driver and a fine for the passenger.And so on. States' rights is a big pain in the ass.

see, this is why I never trust anyone who says they have the cure-all for getting stopped in a situation where you are probably going to fail the breathalyzer. maybe it's legit in the next state over, but who knows...one of my lawyer friends basically told me that cops attempt to cast themselves as the helpful guy that can get you out of trouble. if you'll just incriminate yourself beyond rescue, the good cop will help you out. and they will blatantly lie about the law in the process. I can't comprehend how this is considered acceptable.I mean, I'll never be in a situation where I need to know how to squirm out of a DUI, but it's at least an interesting thought.I've said it elsewhere on FCP, but I have been tailgated in the dark by a cop attempting to get me to speed. I retaliated by taking my foot off the accelerator and drifting down to 20MPH in a 40, which made the fuck quit it. we need police reform BADLY in this country...

[Nimue1995 1]

You've been watching too many bad cop movies. And if you arrested for any felony while operating a vehicle, IMO, the vehicle is fair game to be searched.

Sorry El but it's far more common than you think. Especially if you happen to be a teenager driving what looks like a muscle car or a sports car. Happened to my nephew when they lived in California. He was coming home from work when this car full of guys tried to run him off the road and chased him. He drove to a police station and promptly got arrested for being out past curfew even though he had a legitimate reason to be (working). Police didn't believe him and he had to go to court to get it tossed out. Do you think his vehicle should have been searched in such an instance? It happened. Of course him being a nice Mormon boy there was nothing to find. But he got detained until my brother could come down to the police station.

[El Guapo 8]

why? simply to look for other crimes to add to the arrest? because the cop has reason to believe that this person may be predisposed to commit crimes? not trying to be argumentative here, but why exactly? and if we were to agree that yes, a DWI stop should lead to a search which finds drugs, should they be able to prosecute that? what if they found evidence of an unrelated crime - should they be allowed to prosecute that?

It depends: Look at following scenario.

So now you seem to be back to the notion that if you are accused -- not convicted, accused -- of any crime, then you lose all expectation of privacy in your life? Can they take your computer back to the station? After all, if you smoked a joint, it's possible that you kept a record of that purchase in an Excel file on the laptop. Or maybe it has the locations of the where you stash your drugs. And you might have just deleted it, so they need to do a full disk search, including deleted files.Also, you might be hiding more joints in a balloon in your rectum, so of course they need to do a cavity search, right?Also, you might have just met your spouse and passed the contraband to the spouse, so now they need to go to your house to have your spouse subject to the same treatment?Are you OK with this? For being accused but not convicted of smoking a joint? After all, drugs are illegal.

With reasonable suspicion, they have the right to search what would be reasonable. If it is deemed not reasonable then it would be thrown out of court. So yes, if you are pulled over and arrested for a DWI and smell marijuana, they then search your vehicle and open up the glove box, where they find an unregistered loaded 9MM and they add that charge. This is 100% ok with me and how things work now.What is not OK is if they pull someone over for speeding and then handcuff him and search his car.See the difference?

I retaliated by taking my foot off the accelerator and drifting down to 20MPH in a 40, which made the fuck quit it. we need police reform BADLY in this country...

FWIW that is against the law and is impeding traffic and you are lucky you did not get pulled over and ticketed for that.

[El Guapo 8]

Sorry El but it's far more common than you think. Especially if you happen to be a teenager driving what looks like a muscle car or a sports car. Happened to my nephew when they lived in California. He was coming home from work when this car full of guys tried to run him off the road and chased him. He drove to a police station and promptly got arrested for being out past curfew even though he had a legitimate reason to be (working). Police didn't believe him and he had to go to court to get it tossed out. Do you think his vehicle should have been searched in such an instance? It happened. Of course him being a nice Mormon boy there was nothing to find. But he got detained until my brother could come down to the police station.

You are preaching to the choir here. I am the son of a Cop, as college student I had a very nice BMW and I used to get pulled over all the time. Even asked to be searched. One time I said yes, he asked why, I said I had nothing to hide. He didn't, I then told him my dad was a cop and thought I was dumb for agreeing to the search. I was trying to prove a point.I really don't think any of you are understanding where I am coming from. I don't think the cops should just be able to search people at random, but if you are already being arrested and it falls in line with the arrest, then yes, open the glove box, look in the trunk. That is all still considered reasonable, unless this recent court ruling changes that.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

With reasonable suspicion, they have the right to search what would be reasonable. If it is deemed not reasonable then it would be thrown out of court. So yes, if you are pulled over and arrested for a DWI and smell marijuana, they then search your vehicle and open up the glove box, where they find an unregistered loaded 9MM and they add that charge. This is 100% ok with me and how things work now.What is not OK is if they pull someone over for speeding and then handcuff him and search his car.See the difference?

Yes. But I don't trust everyone else to.

[El Guapo 8]

Yes. But I don't trust everyone else to.

Well I understand that, but this is the current interpretation of the Law for search and seizure under reasonable suspicion. That is why we have a court system, that would throw out evidence confiscated in an ill-gotten manner.

[vbnautilus 48]

If the person is DUI then they have already taken the drugs, so we are less likely to find drugs in their car, compared with someone who has not yet consumed drugs. Therefore, if we pull someone over and they are sober, we can reasonably assume they still have drugs in their car and search them legally.

[brvheart 1,752]

States' rights is a big pain in the ass.

By 'big pain in the the ass' you mean 'the most important thing ever'... right?

we need police reform BADLY in this country...

On the list of things this country needs BADLY... police reform has to be near the bottom. Travel overseas and you'll see what I mean. Especially somewhere other than Europe or Canada.When I was traveling in Asia and Central America, I was hassled non-stop for bribes from every policeman I saw. It was extremely unsettling.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

If the person is DUI then they have already taken the drugs, so we are less likely to find drugs in their car, compared with someone who has not yet consumed drugs. Therefore, if we pull someone over and they are sober, we can reasonably assume they still have drugs in their car and search them legally.

what if they pull you over and see a bunch of clothes in the back seat - should they assume you're a member of a gang of laundry pirates and search the vehicle? it's a perfect presentation of circumstancial evidence of the crime

[vbnautilus 48]

what if they pull you over and see a bunch of clothes in the back seat - should they assume you're a member of a gang of laundry pirates and search the vehicle? it's a perfect presentation of circumstancial evidence of the crime

Well, I think for that search to be reasonable you would have to also be flying the skull and washboard flag.

[El Guapo 8]

what if they pull you over and see a bunch of clothes in the back seat - should they assume you're a member of a gang of laundry pirates and search the vehicle? it's a perfect presentation of circumstancial evidence of the crime

Obama would allow 3-5 days until action was taken. During that time laundry would have time to escape but be hauled back in by the driver, circumventing your circumstantial case.

[strategy 4]

FWIW that is against the law and is impeding traffic and you are lucky you did not get pulled over and ticketed for that.

it was a TWO LANE ROAD. he could have fucking gone around me at any point. he was very clearly trying to rustle up a ticket.

On the list of things this country needs BADLY... police reform has to be near the bottom. Travel overseas and you'll see what I mean. Especially somewhere other than Europe or Canada.When I was traveling in Asia and Central America, I was hassled non-stop for bribes from every policeman I saw. It was extremely unsettling.

c'mon, is this really your justification for not trying to improve the situation? weak.