RunnerRunner1990 0 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Before I get into the hand, im gonna admit that I am a cash game newbie (as in I feel much more comfortable in tournies as thats what I mainly play) with probably less than 60 hrs total experience live cash, and likewise online.The table was 10 handed, and was very passive with alot of limping, then calling raises, basically playing their cards very straightforward. Now onto the hand:I was in middle positon with KK, and the action was:UTG limplimpfoldI make a raise to $45 ($700 stack)callcallfoldfoldSB Re Raises to $155 ($110 more) ($1100 stack)BB FoldThen both limpers in front fold and its up to me...Ive been at the table for a little over 4 hours with mostly the same people, and not once have I seen a re raise from the blinds after an initial raise, as i said before they are all passive and would just call or fold. My read on the player was that he was very passive doing alot of limping, calling raises, and sometimes would come in for a raise in late position when everyone folds to him. So a pretty straightforward player with no dangerous moves in his arsenal (from what i can tell). I put him on one hand and 1 hand only: AA, and MAYBE SLIGHTLY KK (like me).I was not worried about the 2 players behind to act as they were very passive as well, so in my mind it was me against the re raiser. My thought process was a call from me here was out of the question because that is only going to give me a chance to hang myself when the board comes all lower and I go on with the hand and he shows up with the most likely AA, and IF (a very low possibility IF) he does by a small chance have something like AK, by me calling here im giving him a chance to spike an ace. So I only gave myself 2 choices, to shove over the top or fold... Is this thinking reasonable? In a tournament with stacks this deep (over 140bb) I think a call here would be ok from me, but this is a cash games with real money on the table and I think it has to be played different. But I could be wrong.What do we do here? And what would you assess in the hand that I might be missing?I will post the outcome later on what I decided to do when people give their thoughts and input on what we should do here.THANKS EVERYONE! Link to post Share on other sites
staggo 0 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 This is a very interesting spot, I use to be a semi-regular in the 5-5 game at Fallsview and there is generally very little re-raising preflop in any of the games. His range here is probably QQ+. A lot of these passive players will often just call with AK here, although we can't rule it out of his range with a lot of dead money out there. I don't see how a shove could be -ev, but you will probably see AA a pretty decent chunk of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
gooch 0 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 i would think the hand is exactly QQ and he doesn't want to play the hand out of positionyour middle position raise in a limped pot could be a lot of hands to him AJs AQs TT+ for instance, even AKhe has a real hand here for sure, but i don't think it is AAi would look at the post size here before i make a decisionUTG limp $5limp $5foldI make a raise to $45 ($700 stack) $45call $45call $45foldfoldSB Re Raises to $155 ($110 more) ($1100 stack) BB Fold $5there was $155 in the pot exactly before he raised it up, that's a nice take right there for QQ and he can't risk seeing a flop with 3 other players because there is almost certainly going to be an over card out there and his outs may be in someone elses handi would call and shove/call any non A or Q flop, a king hits and you are money obviously but I don't think he has AA Link to post Share on other sites
pezeveng 207 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I was in almost the exact same situation but only had $450 in front of me and I shoved preflop. He of course instacalled with AA. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Before I get into the hand, im gonna admit Ive been at the table for a little over 4 hours with mostly the same people, and not once have I seen a re raise from the blinds after an initial raise, as i said before they are all passive and would just call or fold. My read on the player was that he was very passive doing alot of limping, calling raises, and sometimes would come in for a raise in late position when everyone folds to him. So a pretty straightforward player with no dangerous moves in his arsenal (from what i can tell). I put him on one hand and 1 hand only: AA, and MAYBE SLIGHTLY KK (like me).I was not worried about the 2 players behind to act as they were very passive as well, so in my mind it was me against the re raiser. My thought process was a call from me here was out of the question because that is only going to give me a chance to hang myself when the board comes all lower and I go on with the hand and he shows up with the most likely AA, and IF (a very low possibility IF) he does by a small chance have something like AK, by me calling here im giving him a chance to spike an ace. So I only gave myself 2 choices, to shove over the top or fold... Is this thinking reasonable? In a tournament with stacks this deep (over 140bb) I think a call here would be ok from me, but this is a cash games with real money on the table and I think it has to be played different. But I could be wrong.What do we do here? And what would you assess in the hand that I might be missing?I will post the outcome later on what I decided to do when people give their thoughts and input on what we should do here.THANKS EVERYONE! This is a very interesting spot, I use to be a semi-regular in the 5-5 game at Fallsview and there is generally very little re-raising preflop in any of the games. His range here is probably QQ+. A lot of these passive players will often just call with AK here, although we can't rule it out of his range with a lot of dead money out there. I don't see how a shove could be -ev, but you will probably see AA a pretty decent chunk of the time.I think you have to raise because if you don't, you're likely going to take a flop 4 ways with this hand, and if that happens, we're shoving any non-A flop because there will be more $ in the pot than our stack anyway. Flatting is SOOO passive, but if you're scared to lose this money, then I suppose you can do it. It would also keep in everything we beat like QQ and AK, but it allows the players behind to call. There's really no raise we can make that doesn't totally commit us to this hand, so a shove now might be correct.It's the comments about the passiveness of this game that concern me. That read has weight. Link to post Share on other sites
KenK2 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I would have to agree with mtdesmoines.. A re-raise here is inevitable, and if sb reraises you all in, then you have options.. If that is in fact what happens, he wants all of your chips in the pot, then the read would be AA but if he flat calls then you at least know he is either QQ or AK.. If he shoves to your Re-raise, I would go ahead and assume AA.. Link to post Share on other sites
Banner17 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Couple questions, not nit picking in anyway....How has this guy's night been going? What's his current mood/temperment? How much money does he have in front of him?I would most likely reraise all-in cuz you can't really go to 400 and leave yourself with 300, so just put the whole thing in there. Only way I'm folding is if this guy appears to be a very solid, tight player who is winning in the current session, has about equal amount of money in front of him or more than me, and possibly has just won the previous hand. I ask about his mood because if a guy has been losing, he's usually more prone to gamble. Also, if he's been card dead a bit, he might have a slightly weaker range here. Link to post Share on other sites
Lando7886 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 that is a really tough spot i would have to lean towards pushing with people behind and if he has AA's you are in trouble calling with Kings is a very hard thing to do, but i would say it depends on how he has been playing. if he was extremely tight i would most likely see a flop, but QQ sounds about right and thats what i hope he had for your sake but i would push and hope for the best. A fold would be very tough but an amazing decision if he did have AA Link to post Share on other sites
ml02kr 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 fallsview is wild because people will call alot of hands preflop, countless times i have seen, someone make it $50 UTG at a 5-5 game and get 3-4 callers no problem.When your re-raised here, if your correct on his passiveness, it is almost 95% of the time going to be Aces, occasionally QQ, occasionally KK, I have been in a pickle like this at Fallsview b4, and I have folded KK numerous (3-4 times) & QQ correctly, sometimes I won't even re-raise if I have a sense that he is really strong and I have KK or QQ, I look for a set then dump, unless I feel I can bluff, but at Fallsview that is extremely hard. Re-raises are not very common, especially a solid $45, occasionally someone will take a shot from a $15, $20 or $25 raise with 5-6 callers and make it $100 more, but when you show enormous strength by making it $45 & get re-raised look out, 4-5 yrs ago you could be good, but in today's poker world no way. You know the players you can get it in with KK and be good, this doesnt sound like one of those cases, especially that deep.My advice make the call, if you dont improve give it up on the flop, unless he bets extremely small, or checks it down on a scary board.Usually the 2nd or 3rd raise is always Aces, or Kings - TJ Cloutier Link to post Share on other sites
RunnerRunner1990 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 ok time for some answers!!! thanks for all the input :)I ended up folding my KK (my face was like a deer getting struck by a car, I couldnt believe I had the ability to fold KK preflop in a cash game), and one player behind decided to go all in as he only had $120 more and wanted to gamble with his 88, then the other folded.The re raiser showed AA (I was so relieved)... But here comes the kick in the nuts board for meFlop 2 10 Q... Turn K (NOOOOOOOOO)River 4I somewhat regret not pushing LOL, but at the same time i made the right decision and move on. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 ok time for some answers!!! thanks for all the input :)I ended up folding my KK (my face was like a deer getting struck by a car, I couldnt believe I had the ability to fold KK preflop in a cash game), and one player behind decided to go all in as he only had $120 more and wanted to gamble with his 88, then the other folded.The re raiser showed AA (I was so relieved)... But here comes the kick in the nuts board for meFlop 2 10 Q... Turn K (NOOOOOOOOO)River 4I somewhat regret not pushing LOL, but at the same time i made the right decision and move on.I DO want to state the obvious and that's that, even when we DO run KK into AA, this kind of thing can happen, which is why you'll find the best players advising never fold KK preflop. Even when the one hand that beats you is turned up, you can run it down enough times to make a PF shove with KK profitable (barring an airtight read). Link to post Share on other sites
Lando7886 0 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 ok time for some answers!!! thanks for all the input :)I ended up folding my KK (my face was like a deer getting struck by a car, I couldnt believe I had the ability to fold KK preflop in a cash game), and one player behind decided to go all in as he only had $120 more and wanted to gamble with his 88, then the other folded.The re raiser showed AA (I was so relieved)... But here comes the kick in the nuts board for meFlop 2 10 Q... Turn K (NOOOOOOOOO)River 4I somewhat regret not pushing LOL, but at the same time i made the right decision and move on. shitty board but i would still be proud thats a hell of a fold Link to post Share on other sites
ml02kr 0 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 going broke for $700 all-in preflop (140 bb's) with KK today is not logical (not in a 9 handed game), if your serious player, in a cash game. I mean you have to know the other player, or the situation extremely well, he wants to gamble, he does not play to make money etc...playing 6 handed online 50-100BB deep it is a somewhat different argument, the same as a tournament, slightly different argument, but on high stakes poker you would never see one person shove 200K+ in the pot preflop (unless it is Eli) with KK, even Jamie Gold wouldnt go broke with KK in HSP Season 4 Link to post Share on other sites
bigcoled 1 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I think we have to put in another raise before we can put him on AA... you're so deep, you can make it $3xx and still lay it down pre... In deep stack I generally go with the same theory as when I'm on a plane and I get nervous... You have to trust the pilot wants to make it safely to the next desination as much as you do... In this situation you have to believe that making another raise will truly define his hand, and will only shove with A, because he wants to protect his $1100 in play as much as you want to protect your $700, make it $300+ shows your committment and strength to the hand... You have a chance to make him lay down queens, or flat with queens... Either way, you figure out where you are at, for me this hand can't continue until I really know where I'm at... Link to post Share on other sites
RunnerRunner1990 0 Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 I think we have to put in another raise before we can put him on AA... you're so deep, you can make it $3xx and still lay it down pre... In deep stack I generally go with the same theory as when I'm on a plane and I get nervous... You have to trust the pilot wants to make it safely to the next desination as much as you do... In this situation you have to believe that making another raise will truly define his hand, and will only shove with A, because he wants to protect his $1100 in play as much as you want to protect your $700, make it $300+ shows your committment and strength to the hand... You have a chance to make him lay down queens, or flat with queens... Either way, you figure out where you are at, for me this hand can't continue until I really know where I'm at...Im new to cash games and the feel of having real money in front of me so i dunno if this is okay to do in cash games, but to me, a re raise enough to put ~50% of my stack out there, then fold to a shove regardless if he has AA or not, it just seems like a waste of $ just to see 'where im at'... The gambler in me would rather put it all in and have at least a chance to win rather than put half my stack out there and fold to a re shove... I think any re raise by me gets me committed.Thats why I decided to fold that hand, hes not calling off with worse than my KK as he seemed to be a tight player. But now if we were more deep then id be more inclined to call or possibly re raise. Or if the player seemed to be one of those loose players, then I would never fold.Thoughts?Keep the thoughts and input coming, this is a great way to study the game Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Im new to cash games and the feel of having real money in front of me so i dunno if this is okay to do in cash games, but to me, a re raise enough to put ~50% of my stack out there, then fold to a shove regardless if he has AA or not, it just seems like a waste of $ just to see 'where im at'... The gambler in me would rather put it all in and have at least a chance to win rather than put half my stack out there and fold to a re shove... I think any re raise by me gets me committed.Thats why I decided to fold that hand, hes not calling off with worse than my KK as he seemed to be a tight player. But now if we were more deep then id be more inclined to call or possibly re raise. Or if the player seemed to be one of those loose players, then I would never fold.Thoughts?Keep the thoughts and input coming, this is a great way to study the game 1/2/300 NLHESome random time in 2007Me: $1400MP: $900UTG+1 opens for $25.MP raises to $75I raise to $225.UTG+1 fold. MP shoves all in and I fold.This is the ONLY time I've ever folded KK preflop, and I only did it because I knew this player would only do that with AA.I folded. He had AA. Link to post Share on other sites
RunnerRunner1990 0 Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 1/2/300 NLHESome random time in 2007Me: $1400MP: $900UTG+1 opens for $25.MP raises to $75I raise to $225.UTG+1 fold. MP shoves all in and I fold.This is the ONLY time I've ever folded KK preflop, and I only did it because I knew this player would only do that with AA.I folded. He had AA.Thats exactly what I was trying to say, in your scenario it makes more sense and easier to fold because you only put in 1/6th ur stack AND he re shoved so its ok to fold here, but in my case a re raise would put in 50% of my stack and i feel thats commiting too much if im not going to go through with the hand, which is why i left myself with 2 options, re shove and pick up the $250 out there and hopefully he doesnt have AA, or fold. Link to post Share on other sites
bigcoled 1 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Im new to cash games and the feel of having real money in front of me so i dunno if this is okay to do in cash games, but to me, a re raise enough to put ~50% of my stack out there, then fold to a shove regardless if he has AA or not, it just seems like a waste of $ just to see 'where im at'... The gambler in me would rather put it all in and have at least a chance to win rather than put half my stack out there and fold to a re shove... I think any re raise by me gets me committed.Thats why I decided to fold that hand, hes not calling off with worse than my KK as he seemed to be a tight player. But now if we were more deep then id be more inclined to call or possibly re raise. Or if the player seemed to be one of those loose players, then I would never fold.Thoughts?Keep the thoughts and input coming, this is a great way to study the game If you aren't willing to fold to the 5th bet after putting in the 4th bet, then I would rather get it in w/ the 5th bet then just fold to a 3 bet... Link to post Share on other sites
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