New Rule

[babylondonks 5]

Oh and maybe people are just playing a lot of tables. Slowrolling only happens when they time down and then activate their time bank and let it run dooooooowwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

Some guy slowroll raised me today. Timebanked to 1 second and then minraised me. I timed out just blinking at my screen.

[AAsnake88 0]

I wanna skype.

I'm on.

[Vtlaxer09 4]

I'm on.

thats what she said.

[king1305 0]

I wanna skype.

I'm on.

hi.

[Vtlaxer09 4]

hi.

new rule: king1305 is gay

[chgocubs99 0]

okay, but why is that "wrong". Isn't your goal to win the guy's money, and isn't that easier if he's tilted?

Like someone else said, it's because you are pouring salt in a wound. Live, it may be easier to win their money if they are tilted but that doesn't mean you should go out of your way to tilt someone with something that is not related to the game. I could sneeze on my chips and call a pot when I'm sure I'm beat too, and it wouldn't be against any rules, and it may tilt the guy. I could insult a guys wife the entire time we're playing and it may tilt the guy. Doesn't mean it's right. Online, you probably won't tilt anyone anyway. It's the "Wow you're a badass behind your computer" sort of thing to do. If it makes someone want to kick your ass and it has nothing to do with the game, then it's ethically wrong and overall pretty pointless and stupid.

[qyayqi 11]

No Slowrolling was an unspoken rule backed up by guns. it was considered ill-mannered, thus making it the perfect play for many online players. nobody around to check your moral compass, might as will shit the bed. the low road is infinitely easier because we don't have to care about anyone but ourselves & our immediate gratification.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Like If it makes someone want to kick your ass and it has nothing to do with the game, then it's ethically wrong and overall pretty pointless and stupid.

See, I don't agree. Making someone want to kick your ass is the exact point. Mostly, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but it's this whole concept of "should" I guess that is the issue. Why? What is the moral mechanism that is causing you to act this way because you "should". Because it's "not the right thing to do?" yeah, I need more than that to do or not do something, rather than just tradition and unwritten rules. A good friend of mine is extremely rude and confrontational in poker games, and he does it in an extremely skillful and targeted manner. He gets all kinds of action from people, because they hate him. And he's very careful whom he needles and confronts, it's not the fish, it's not the terrible players, it's always the thight, non-action guys, or the tougher players ( not, like the super tough ones, just the semi good ones). He butters up and befriends the bad players. It's extremely effective, and he's extremely comfortable doing it. I myself am not comfortable doing that, I'm more into being perceived as weird and goofy, or nice and friendly .. I know the Krab dance seems really rude, but when I do it, people just think I'm insane. It's rare that i ever get confrontational, and it's only with people who are bad for the game, like being belligerent to bad players or something. I subtly needle people, which I think is an art, but I don't really try and get them full on hate angry, because it's just not me. But if you can do it, I think it's a very effective tactic, I've seen it in action, and I think slow rolling someone can be part of that, and can be +EV.(there are metagame considerations, too. If you're a confrontational, slow rolling prick to everyone, you may miss out on staking opportunities, life opportunities, getting invited to private games or soft games, or making friendships that can somehow be valuable to you in other ways. I've mentioned that to my friend, but he's just a confrontational prick as a person, and he's just not really going to be able to change I don't think. He's never been hit in a casino, yet, but he's been asked to go out side many, many times ( to which he says " yeah, you and me, we're going to fight, outside, toe to toe... I'm on my way, right now.. to fight you.." in a really obnoxious way, and it just makes them even angrier, 'cause people know they can't just punch him on camera and infront of security)).

[chgocubs99 0]

See, I don't agree. Making someone want to kick your ass is the exact point.

You are way overanalyzing this. There is a social aspect and interaction in poker, and in certain social interactions the human race has come up with a set of guidelines established over many centuries. It allows us to live a more peaceful, relaxing lifestyle where we can all interact and respect each other on a consistent basis. Intentionally pissing people off goes against these societal guidelines, and it means you are a douchebag.I could complain about every meal I get at various restaurants around the city. I would eat for free pretty much every night. There's no reason I "shouldn't" do this. It's just a douche thing to do. Slowrolling is a douche thing to do. If your buddy wants to piss everyone off at the table and add a little bit to his winrate, that's his perogotive. I'd rather pay for my meals.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You are way overanalyzing this. There is a social aspect and interaction in poker, and in certain social interactions the human race has come up with a set of guidelines established over many centuries. It allows us to live a more peaceful, relaxing lifestyle where we can all interact and respect each other on a consistent basis. Intentionally pissing people off goes against these societal guidelines, and it means you are a douchebag.

I'm arguing if it makes you perceived to be a douche, a jerk or an *******, of course it does. My question is, does that matter? Is sticking to etiquette contracts worth it? There are plenty of assholes in life, in your job, in the business world, who are complete and utter pricks, and they are extremely successful. Intentionally pissing someone off when your'e walking down the street has no upside. But doing it at a poker table can be +EV, and I'm just not sure saying that breaks some unwritten social contract is a good enough reason to give up EV.

[chgocubs99 0]

I'm arguing if it makes you perceived to be a douche, a jerk or an *******, of course it does. My question is, does that matter? Is sticking to etiquette contracts worth it? There are plenty of assholes in life, in your job, in the business world, who are complete and utter pricks, and they are extremely successful. Intentionally pissing someone off when your'e walking down the street has no upside. But doing it at a poker table can be +EV, and I'm just not sure saying that breaks some unwritten social contract is a good enough reason to give up EV.

I think it does matter and it is a reason to give up EV, and that's where the debate ends since there really is nothing further to discuss if we can't get past that. You're right about the assholes in everyday life, and I wouldn't be one to be successful. If that means that I am less succesful than a guy with equal skill of mine, I'm fine with that. Money isn't everything.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I think it does matter and it is a reason to give up EV, and that's where the debate ends since there really is nothing further to discuss if we can't get past that. You're right about the assholes in everyday life, and I wouldn't be one to be successful. If that means that I am less succesful than a guy with equal skill of mine, I'm fine with that. Money isn't everything.

and that's fair enough, it's fair enough. I was just trying to come up with more reasons not to, that I'm not thinking of, besides " shouldn't". Because I, personally, don't really hold should or shouldn't as having much logical merit. I can totally see why you don't do it, but that answer doesn't hold much interest to me.Because, okay, lets say you're playing in a 6 handed game, for X amount of time, and it's the only game you can play in. Every player there, has the exact same skill, and over time, you've all broke even ( no rake, obv). Then, one of the six of you starts being a jerk, and slow rolling people and being confrontational. Then, all of a sudden he's the only winner, and the other five of you are losers. Would it be worth it to start being a jerk to win, or would you just quit playing? Of course, there are other answer, you can be extremely disciplined, not let the jerk bother you, but benefit from the tilting of the other players, but it would work to a lesser degree, because they wouldn't be mad at you. They would still make errors, but maybe not the catastrophic ones they will against the jerk. And truthfully, and sadly this same model can be used for someone who cheats, and is a compelling reason ( from an EV perspective) to cheat. It's a sad fact, that all things being equal, those willing to cheat and willing to be assholes are going to beat nice ethical guys of the same skill level. I hope everyone who plays poker has this high sense of moral character, to not engage in these activities, but if they don't have moral fiber, there is a large advantage to be had.

[magnus72 0]

and that's fair enough, it's fair enough. I was just trying to come up with more reasons not to, that I'm not thinking of, besides " shouldn't". Because I, personally, don't really hold should or shouldn't as having much logical merit. I can totally see why you don't do it, but that answer doesn't hold much interest to me.Because, okay, lets say you're playing in a 6 handed game, for X amount of time, and it's the only game you can play in. Every player there, has the exact same skill, and over time, you've all broke even ( no rake, obv). Then, one of the six of you starts being a jerk, and slow rolling people and being confrontational. Then, all of a sudden he's the only winner, and the other five of you are losers. Would it be worth it to start being a jerk to win, or would you just quit playing? Of course, there are other answer, you can be extremely disciplined, not let the jerk bother you, but benefit from the tilting of the other players, but it would work to a lesser degree, because they wouldn't be mad at you. They would still make errors, but maybe not the catastrophic ones they will against the jerk. And truthfully, and sadly this same model can be used for someone who cheats, and is a compelling reason ( from an EV perspective) to cheat. It's a sad fact, that all things being equal, those willing to cheat and willing to be assholes are going to beat nice ethical guys of the same skill level. I hope everyone who plays poker has this high sense of moral character, to not engage in these activities, but if they don't have moral fiber, there is a large advantage to be had.

and woman like assholes

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

and woman like assholes

My friend has turned two separate extremely hot girl friends into strippers, for what it's worth.So you can add moral ( if not legal) pandering to my friend's list of character flaws

[magnus72 0]

My friend has turned two separate extremely hot girl friends into strippers, for what it's worth.So you can add moral ( if not legal) pandering to my friend's list of character flaws

thats what i mean I dont get it, but im not going to change being a nice guy to get it.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

thats what i mean I dont get it, but im not going to change being a nice guy to get it.

On the down side the two women were both hot, yet very psychologically damaged (the hotter of the two I think may have been so hot it atrophied her brain, like retardation via hotness. If she'd had like a severe face wound at age 6 or something, she might have had a chance to use her brain for something other than picking out cute outfits ( which she's extremely skilled at)). They also had no real emotional relationship, as he completely used them, and they completely were psychologically Dependant on him. So, getting into these kinds of relationships isn't all sun shine and lollipops. You have to be extremely crass, materialistic and manipulative, and want exactly nothing in terms of actual emotional or intellectual intimacy. On the other hand, he didn't ever work while he was dating them, and it was their crotch grinding that gave him the starting bank roll ( and the parachute to be able to lose and learn from his mistakes) that eventually became his successful ( if modestly) full time poker playing. He hasn't worked a real job in at least 3 years. These are the pro's and cons of amorality, I'm just here to educate.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

merp

[Dirtydutch 8]

I appreciate you not mentioning me by name, Mac, but I think you're marginalizing the moral process that goes into my actions. Some girls need to be exploited.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I appreciate you not mentioning me by name, Mac, but I think you're marginalizing the moral process that goes into my actions. Some girls need to be exploited.

And then there's dutch, who's motivations are not as clear cut and easy to understand as my friend's. They ( Dutch's motivations) don't seem to come from a place like " pure monetary gain", they are of a more obscure, almost Zen-like nature. it is a subject I'll stay away from, as this is a family forum, and some of you frighten easily.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Dutch is a simpler man than you'd think, Mac. Money is a priority up until a certain level of utility, which he is lucky enough to be well past. Beyond that, it's a pretty typical blend of power/validation/misplaced resentment.

[navybuttons 15]

i just put enough beats on people that i don't have to slowroll them.i actually wish i got slowrolled more often.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Dutch is a simpler man than you'd think, Mac. Money is a priority up until a certain level of utility, which he is lucky enough to be well past. Beyond that, it's a pretty typical blend of power/validation/misplaced resentment.

YOu need to scrap the modesty and the "Typical blend of power/validation bs, and instead write a psedo-philosophical book called "the Tao of Dutch"

[Dirtydutch 8]

YOu need to scrap the modesty and the "Typical blend of power/validation bs, and instead write a psedo-philosophical book called "the Tao of Dutch"

I could totally see myself as some kind of a huckster, taking my fortune off of 16-year-old losers who are also irrationally angry at women or whatever, $16 at a time.

[magnus72 0]

I could totally see myself as some kind of a huckster, taking my fortune off of 16-year-old losers who are also irrationally angry at women or whatever, $16 at a time.

Id buy it and Im not 16

[psujohn 0]

It's a sad fact, that all things being equal, those willing to cheat and willing to be assholes are going to beat nice ethical guys of the same skill level.

Perhaps in the short term but in the long run I think the friendly guys win. Being rude drives away the recreational player who's there just to have fun. Being rude wakes up the lazy player who's capable of playing well but was just goofing off until you insulted him. Being rude prevents you from getting a call when a big fish sits down or a juicy private game gets running. Hopefully most people don't need a reason to be civil but if you do then I really do think that being civil is more +EV in the long term.Sure you can say "But I'm just a tourist in Vegas. I'll never see these guys again." and that may be true but if there's one asshat at every table the recreational player will be driven away and they won't be there for you next time.