Socialism

[copernicus 0]

do you want to see my tax return?

You say this ironically, and the question itself a bit hyperbolic (pain, suffering), but the reality is that your tax return does highlight the problem. Socialism drags down an economy by restricting individual rights and motivation.

[Avaron 0]

You say this ironically, and the question itself a bit hyperbolic (pain, suffering), but the reality is that your tax return does highlight the problem. Socialism drags down an economy by restricting individual rights and motivation.

i don't see that happen in my country at all. in fact, it's been quite the contrary here for the last 60 years (exept actual problems, of course. and they've nothing to do with this topic)

[copernicus 0]

i don't see that happen in my country at all. in fact, it's been quite the contrary here for the last 60 years (exept actual problems, of course. and they've nothing to do with this topic)

Then you aren't looking at the right things. What is the rate of business formation? Investment in existing business? Innovation? Productivity? And how much of your level of prosperity is actually being subsidized externally?

[hblask 1]

well, that's the other side of democracy: we have to live with the people we've elected. so we better make good choices...

And yet, we have to live in the real world. I'd prefer a system that works there.

it's not about taking control of every decision, not at all. just to provide some control and security to avoid things like the actual crisis.

But that's what socialism is. You seem to be referring to a muscular welfare state, which is something different completely.

which one? the idealism to make a specific society have better opportunities/life/possibilities etc? Then you're right, because of this idealism every society system is based, the bad and the good. it's about how it should be done.but then, there is nowhere written in the social theory, that we have to either make one "race" superior to the other (facism) or that we have to built a dictatorship in general. you're right in one point: the facist and communist regimes had one thing in common: they both used the tools of a dictatorship, since they're the same in every dictatorship.

Socialism and communism are indistinguishable in the real world, but since you just seem to be arguing for a stronger welfare state (I think there's still some 'projects' left if you want to see how that works), so maybe my point was moot.

[hblask 1]

You seem to only define Socialism as the most extreme case and it must also be a dictatorship while you have many people here in this forum and elsewhere calling Obama a Socialist because he wants to have more government involvement in Health Insurance.Germany under the Nazis had private ownership but were a dictatorship and most economies including the US come under more state control during periods of total war like WWII was.I'm not an advocate for Socialism although I'm sure I prefer more government involvement in things than you do but there are people and governments in the World who are Socialist who also believe in the rule of law and free markets. Nothing is an absolute.China which is called a Communist Country and is ruled by the Communist Party is actually economically moving away from Socialism and toward a market economy and free markets while keeping political control in the hands of the Party. They are a dictatorship but not really Communist or even Socialist any longer.I know we're just talking about semantics but I would suggest that a vast majority of people when they talk about Socialism mean more than the narrow way that you seem to be describing it.

Yeah, I'm seeing that.... it's clear that socialism harms the economy, though. In small doses, it harms the economy a little, in big doses, it harms it a lot. I'd prefer no harm, but some people think harming the economy a little is OK in the name of social justice.

[Avaron 0]

Then you aren't looking at the right things. What is the rate of business formation? Investment in existing business? Innovation? Productivity? And how much of your level of prosperity is actually being subsidized externally?

i don't have the numbers and i'm not searching for them. actually we're in a little trouble, obv, because of the ebvious reasons. my point is, that our system was very successful since the beginning and didn't restrict or drag down anything.

[hblask 1]

I'm just rolling with the terminology we like to throw around here. yes, I know that they are capitalist at heart, but they're european countries who ascribe to the philosophies we love to hate and they have made it work just fine. I'm not saying it can work here, just that it DOES work for them. I invite you to show me the pain, suffering, and harm it inflicts on their people.

The 'pain' it inflicts is economic malaise, and higher than expected unemployment rates. Of course, with the welfare state, that makes that tolerable to people who would rather not work anyway.

[hblask 1]

do you want to see my tax return? just kidding, i'm a student, i'm not paying taxes yet. but it's a consequence i'm willing to take for its benefits

Exactly, everyone who supports socialist systems thinks they are getting more for it than they are paying. Eventually, though, reality kicks in.

[Avaron 0]

Exactly, everyone who supports socialist systems thinks they are getting more for it than they are paying. Eventually, though, reality kicks in.

well, eventually i'm right now getting something for it: our so-called "bafög", financial support for students. and i don't mind at all^^. it's not much and i still have to work besides, but it's nice anyway.

[strategy 4]

The 'pain' it inflicts is economic malaise, and higher than expected unemployment rates. Of course, with the welfare state, that makes that tolerable to people who would rather not work anyway.

ya, I've seen the numbers, our mean unemployment rate is lower than any country with very strict employment laws. their populace feels that it is an acceptable outcome of their policies. it doesn't mean that they can't be self-sufficient or have a strong military, just that their productivity and output is a bit lower.again, I'm not saying it's a good way of doing business, just that they seem to be content with it.

[hblask 1]

again, I'm not saying it's a good way of doing business, just that they seem to be content with it.

I find that a bit sad.

[strategy 4]

I find that a bit sad.

and they find you to be a bit of a pigstill <3 you though

[neretva 0]

I'm just rolling with the terminology we like to throw around here. yes, I know that they are capitalist at heart, but they're european countries who ascribe to the philosophies we love to hate and they have made it work just fine. I'm not saying it can work here, just that it DOES work for them. I invite you to show me the pain, suffering, and harm it inflicts on their people.

Are you so effing stupid that you can't see the harm in stealing from one person to give to another?

[neretva 0]

well, eventually i'm right now getting something for it: our so-called "bafög", financial support for students. and i don't mind at all^^. it's not much and i still have to work besides, but it's nice anyway.

Oh yes it's "nice" to get something handed to you that was taken from someone else under threat of imprisonment. The students of today are an utter disgrace. All they can think about is who, other than themselves, they can soak to advance their own personal goals.

[Avaron 0]

Oh yes it's "nice" to get something handed to you that was taken from someone else under threat of imprisonment. The students of today are an utter disgrace. All they can think about is who, other than themselves, they can soak to advance their own personal goals.

wat?? lol. okay, an intelligent discussion just came to an end...

[copernicus 0]

wat?? lol. okay, an intelligent discussion just came to an end...

What happens to you in Germany when you dont pay your taxes? I dislike the hyperbole, but it does happen here. Ask Wesely Snipes

[Avaron 0]

What happens to you in Germany when you dont pay your taxes? I dislike the hyperbole, but it does happen here. Ask Wesely Snipes

we have to pay it fully back. and if it's really big, prison up to 10 years is possible.@neretva: it's not like "taking from some and giving to the poor students". everybody pays and everybody has the right to get it if it's needed. and it's not that i just take a gift. i have to pay 50% back when university is over and i have a job.that's the way our social system works: we all pay more or less the same and thereby we all have the right to get health insurance, retirement pay, bafög, unemployment pay (just for 2 years, we still have to work^^) etc.BUT: still everybody has the possibility to take care of all these things for himself with private insurances. no one is forced to nothing.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

we have to pay it fully back. and if it's really big, prison up to 10 years is possible.@neretva: it's not like "taking from some and giving to the poor students". everybody pays and everybody has the right to get it if it's needed. and it's not that i just take a gift. i have to pay 50% back when university is over and i have a job.

There isn't a lot of point in getting into a debate with neretva as his views are so extreme that he doesn't believe in any taxation or public funding of any schools at all.

[CaneBrain 95]

There isn't a lot of point in getting into a debate with neretva as his views are so extreme that he doesn't believe in any taxation or public funding of any schools at all.

he is also unsure about the existence of gravity. needs more study.

[copernicus 0]

we have to pay it fully back. and if it's really big, prison up to 10 years is possible.So why were you surprised at his response about arrest?@neretva: it's not like "taking from some and giving to the poor students". everybody pays and everybody has the right to get it if it's needed. and it's not that i just take a gift. i have to pay 50% back when university is over and i have a job.that's the way our social system works: we all pay more or less the same and thereby we all have the right to get health insurance, retirement pay, bafög, unemployment pay (just for 2 years, we still have to work^^) etc.BUT: still everybody has the possibility to take care of all these things for himself with private insurances. no one is forced to nothing.

Do you get a tax rebate if you dont want the government version?

[Avaron 0]

Do you get a tax rebate if you dont want the government version?

not a tax rebate. but we don't have to pay it, if we don't want. the fee for our complete social security system (includes: health, unemployment, retirement) is split equally between employer and employee. that's good for both sides, because the employee doesn't need to pay the full prize and the employer gets tax cuts and other virtues. so the it starts and ends with an employment. unless, we have a private insurance. then we (and the employer) don't have to pay to the state.but of course, private insurances are much more expensive and you need an extra insurance for everything: health, unemployment, retirement, etc.

[neretva 0]

There isn't a lot of point in getting into a debate with neretva as his views are so extreme that he doesn't believe in any taxation or public funding of any schools at all.

Nonsense. I fully believe in taxation. Voluntary taxation. Under a voluntary system of taxation I would be happy to pay 20-25% total for taxes to underwrite various programs. Programs which I should be able to pick for myself. I might even go for some altruism, if I choose. However I would be free NOT to fund any activity that I deemed to be detrimental to the survival of a moral society. Like ACORN, among a billion others. I want a line-item veto for any taxes that I pay. In fact, that might be a first step towards voluntary taxation, a concept which is too radically sensible for anyone to imagine at the present time. We'll keep the insane compulsory tax system we have now, but with a line item veto where we could decide what we don't want to pay for based on our own judgement of what is good for society.Could you ever conceive of liberals going for THAT? Power to the People! The Citizens Line Item Veto Act of 2009: "Each citizen may direct that his income, sales, and property taxes NOT be used for any law or appropriation that he feels is immoral or destructive to American society or its future." As for public schools, I do not believe in them. They are nothing more than a babysitting and indoctrination service. The quality of today's high school graduate is not to be believed. Unable to think. Unable to assess. Unable to express. Unable to problem solve. Unable to even intelligently apply for the proper handouts. Disgracia! The fact that favoring totally private education is considered "extremism" is a testament to the powers of indoctrination. No one can even conceive of not having public schools because they are so interwoven into our social psychology. However, there is no rational reason to expect the government to educate the population. Parents should accept that responsibility. And should be responsible for paying for it. Good parents do that even now, paying for proper education while at the same time paying property taxes to 1/3-educate someone elses little imbeciles, because they themselves are too busy working at a job that does not pay enough to allow for raising kids.But hey, having kids is a "right". Right? So what if you can't afford it. Love is all you need. Under the Citizens Line-Item Veto Act of 2009, I could elect NOT to fund public schools. Power to the People. I'm a liberal.

[strategy 4]

Are you so effing stupid that you can't see the harm in stealing from one person to give to another?

wow, you're a huge dumbass. it is sanctioned by both the poor and rich of those countries, where is the harm?

[copernicus 0]

not a tax rebate. but we don't have to pay it, if we don't want. You dont have to pay the tax? the fee for our complete social security system (includes: health, unemployment, retirement) is split equally between employer and employee. so is ours, although some claim that its all paid by the employee, since they could have received the employer contribution in wages. that's good for both sides, because the employee doesn't need to pay the full prize and the employer gets tax cuts and other virtues. so the it starts and ends with an employment. unless, we have a private insurance. then we (and the employer) don't have to pay to the state.but of course, private insurances are much more expensive and you need an extra insurance for everything: health, unemployment, retirement, etc. So you have to opt out of every program, you cant choose?

[copernicus 0]

wow, you're a huge dumbass. it is sanctioned by both the poor and rich of those countries, where is the harm?

Imagine the programs funded in the land of Neretva? crack and ho's for everyone! Defense? bah. We'll be so happy we wont give a damn when we're invaded.