Mixed Game Challenge Thread

[antistuff 0]

Ummm...not to be a total di.ck here, but if u are playing .10/.20 and Jamie (Checky) is giving u advce...it would be wise to take it.He is w/o question a brazzilion percent right here.Like all of us...Jamie trained under Steve and 2-7 might be his best game and a game he plays at a nosebleed level. Jamie is maybe the best 2-7 player of all of Steve's students.That is all...*edit*After talkking to AAsnake my "tone" didn't come across well. I am not being an ash...I just think if you are trying to LEARN...then listen to what Jamie says and u will tp/mm!!!!=)

there is no doubt that jamie is very good at 2-7 and is indisputably correct about what he is saying here. that said automatically not questioning somebody just because of who they "are" is a huge leak in life.

[checkymcfold 0]

there is no doubt that jamie is very good at 2-7 and is indisputably correct about what he is saying here. that said automatically not questioning somebody just because of who they "are" is a huge leak in life.

unless its me. duh .i winned THREE DOLLARS today in one full rotation. sick hand was in nlhe:2 limpers, i raise to 2.50 with a9h, limpers call. (i had squeezed successfully the hand prior with a9h--obv rigged that i got the two same cards two hands in a row, lol)flop 1054 hhh. woot.checks around.turn 5. (pot is around 8 bucks)first limper leads 4, second limper folds, i raise to 15, first limper calls.river 10. goddammit.first limper leads two ****ing dollars. i call. 108o ftw.on a side note, i've decided that lou dobbs is officially batshit crazy. like, he's completely lost it. completely.

[Pdiddydog 0]

unless its me. duh .i winned THREE DOLLARS today in one full rotation. sick hand was in nlhe:2 limpers, i raise to 2.50 with a9h, limpers call. (i had squeezed successfully the hand prior with a9h--obv rigged that i got the two same cards two hands in a row, lol)flop 1054 hhh. woot.checks around.turn 5. (pot is around 8 bucks)first limper leads 4, second limper folds, i raise to 15, first limper calls.river 10. goddammit.first limper leads two ****ing dollars. i call. 108o ftw.on a side note, i've decided that lou dobbs is officially batshit crazy. like, he's completely lost it. completely.

Is the NLHE really that soft? I figured it would most of the players best game considering that's the game they play the most.

[jmbreslin 0]

there is no doubt that jamie is very good at 2-7 and is indisputably correct about what he is saying here. that said automatically not questioning somebody just because of who they "are" is a huge leak in life.

Yup. And I learn by challenging and questioning. When I challenge something that someone says, it's not because I'm discounting it it's because I'm testing out ideas and trying to understand.

[blakheart 3]

Jim- I wanted to show this hand so that you can see some common mistakes made in 2-7. I should not be allowed to be in this pot, but villian played poorly and cost himself a pot.Predraw he limps when he has a one card draw. That lets me in.After first draw he is heads up with me and I drew 3. He should bet here (so I can check raise)Finally, he is playing 3,4,6,7 - This is a hand that is really hard to hit. He needs to hit one of 8 cards, a 2 or an 8. if you draw smoother (2,3,4, 7) you have 12 outs to make a 7 and 16 outs to make a 8. Here he has 4 outs for a 7 and 8 outs to an 8.So he either needs to play fast and push everyone out before the river (he looks stronger since he is drawing 1) or he needs to muck preflop. Playing passively like he did cost hom the pot.PokerStars Game #20813605126: 8-Game (Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit, $1/$2) - 2008/09/30 10:30:29 ETTable 'Draco II' 6-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: MuckItGood ($15.05 in chips) Seat 2: scrub_mx ($34.50 in chips) Seat 3: Dark J@ker ($51.70 in chips) Seat 4: blakheart916 ($49.20 in chips) Seat 5: laydown666 ($49.95 in chips) Seat 6: yolokoloko ($16.25 in chips) Dark J@ker: posts small blind $0.50blakheart916: posts big blind $1*** DEALING HANDS ***Dealt to blakheart916 [5c Tc Kc 3d Kd]laydown666: folds yolokoloko: calls $1MuckItGood: folds scrub_mx: folds Dark J@ker: folds blakheart916: checks *** FIRST DRAW ***blakheart916: discards 3 cards [Tc Kc Kd]Dealt to blakheart916 [5c 3d] [8c 2h 7s]yolokoloko: discards 1 cardblakheart916: checks yolokoloko: checks *** SECOND DRAW ***blakheart916: stands pat on [5c 3d 8c 2h 7s]yolokoloko: discards 1 cardblakheart916: bets $2yolokoloko: calls $2*** THIRD DRAW ***blakheart916: stands pat on [5c 3d 8c 2h 7s]yolokoloko: discards 1 cardblakheart916: bets $2yolokoloko: calls $2*** SHOW DOWN ***blakheart916: shows [5c 8c 2h 3d 7s] (Lo: 8,7,5,3,2)yolokoloko: mucks hand blakheart916 collected $10 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $10.50 | Rake $0.50 Seat 1: MuckItGood folded before the Draw (didn't bet)Seat 2: scrub_mx (button) folded before the Draw (didn't bet)Seat 3: Dark J@ker (small blind) folded before the DrawSeat 4: blakheart916 (big blind) showed [5c 8c 2h 3d 7s] and won ($10) with Lo: 8,7,5,3,2Seat 5: laydown666 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)Seat 6: yolokoloko mucked [9h 6s 7d 4s 3h]

[uncooper 1]

Yup. And I learn by challenging and questioning. When I challenge something that someone says, it's not because I'm discounting it it's because I'm testing out ideas and trying to understand.

Additionally, in poker it's important to understand WHY you make a play, not just THAT you should make a play. Understanding where the profit comes from in poker is a relatively abstract idea that a ton of people probably don't get. If you wanted to be an NL bot, it's "fine" to watch a bunch of cardrunners videos and play poker by imitation. But especially in a mixed game setting, the underlying concepts are just as important as the actual plays.

[Vick12 0]

Adam makes me look real nice sometimes

Don't make me do...I mean call your mom into this thread!!!

there is no doubt that jamie is very good at 2-7 and is indisputably correct about what he is saying here. that said automatically not questioning somebody just because of who they "are" is a huge leak in life.

I wasn't saying Jamie shouldn't be questioned. I was saying...if you are player at Level 1 and a player at Level 8 (just using levels instead of whatever money limits you play) gives you advice that is basically of the ABC fundamental variety...u should heed that advice.

Yup. And I learn by challenging and questioning. When I challenge something that someone says, it's not because I'm discounting it it's because I'm testing out ideas and trying to understand.

2 things. 1st...I was at least 5 vodka tonics deep when I read your response to Jamie in the 1st place...drunkaments w/ AAsnake FTW!!!! 2nd. I guess I see a difference in having a good discussion and challenging things when the discussion isn't of an ABC variety. Not raising your 2 card draws that have any combination of 2, 3-6, 7 and playing them for value is just a FUNDAMENTAL mistake. Every form of poker has basic fundamentals and in 2-7 not playing you 2 card 7 draws very hard is a leak. I pointed out the level you play only because it sounds like you are a newbie to 2-7 etc. EVERYONE including myself has played micro-limits etc. where you are learning the game. I simply took your post as less of a question and more of a Jamie...you're wrong here post. As long as you are trying to LEARN...then taking Jamie's advice would be a solid way to start. There are a TON of great NL players/teachers out there. I am not sure many people know the game of 2-7 better than Steve...who taught Jamie...who is one of the better teachers of the entire game of poker I know. Before I met them...I was a break even player at best. Since I met them...I have put my son's college education away...take that fwiw!!!GL!!!!

[antistuff 0]

Jim- I wanted to show this hand so that you can see some common mistakes made in 2-7. I should not be allowed to be in this pot, but villian played poorly and cost himself a pot.Predraw he limps when he has a one card draw. That lets me in.After first draw he is heads up with me and I drew 3. He should bet here (so I can check raise)Finally, he is playing 3,4,6,7 - This is a hand that is really hard to hit. He needs to hit one of 8 cards, a 2 or an 8. if you draw smoother (2,3,4, 7) you have 12 outs to make a 7 and 16 outs to make a 8. Here he has 4 outs for a 7 and 8 outs to an 8.So he either needs to play fast and push everyone out before the river (he looks stronger since he is drawing 1) or he needs to muck preflop. Playing passively like he did cost hom the pot.PokerStars Game #20813605126: 8-Game (Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit, $1/$2) - 2008/09/30 10:30:29 ETTable 'Draco II' 6-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: MuckItGood ($15.05 in chips) Seat 2: scrub_mx ($34.50 in chips) Seat 3: Dark J@ker ($51.70 in chips) Seat 4: blakheart916 ($49.20 in chips) Seat 5: laydown666 ($49.95 in chips) Seat 6: yolokoloko ($16.25 in chips) Dark J@ker: posts small blind $0.50blakheart916: posts big blind $1*** DEALING HANDS ***Dealt to blakheart916 [5c Tc Kc 3d Kd]laydown666: folds yolokoloko: calls $1MuckItGood: folds scrub_mx: folds Dark J@ker: folds blakheart916: checks *** FIRST DRAW ***blakheart916: discards 3 cards [Tc Kc Kd]Dealt to blakheart916 [5c 3d] [8c 2h 7s]yolokoloko: discards 1 cardblakheart916: checks yolokoloko: checks *** SECOND DRAW ***blakheart916: stands pat on [5c 3d 8c 2h 7s]yolokoloko: discards 1 cardblakheart916: bets $2yolokoloko: calls $2*** THIRD DRAW ***blakheart916: stands pat on [5c 3d 8c 2h 7s]yolokoloko: discards 1 cardblakheart916: bets $2yolokoloko: calls $2*** SHOW DOWN ***blakheart916: shows [5c 8c 2h 3d 7s] (Lo: 8,7,5,3,2)yolokoloko: mucks hand blakheart916 collected $10 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $10.50 | Rake $0.50 Seat 1: MuckItGood folded before the Draw (didn't bet)Seat 2: scrub_mx (button) folded before the Draw (didn't bet)Seat 3: Dark J@ker (small blind) folded before the DrawSeat 4: blakheart916 (big blind) showed [5c 8c 2h 3d 7s] and won ($10) with Lo: 8,7,5,3,2Seat 5: laydown666 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)Seat 6: yolokoloko mucked [9h 6s 7d 4s 3h]

i was watching the 2-7 videos by death donkey on deuces cracked and a big point that he makes over and over again is using bad one card draws to balance your range. you take a hand like 3467 and raise one limper late or open raise late and play it like you have 2347. this works especially well against players who play overly straightforward becouse they will never draw two against you past the second draw and they will never turn their hand into a snow.

[checkymcfold 0]

i was watching the 2-7 videos by death donkey on deuces cracked and a big point that he makes over and over again is using bad one card draws to balance your range. you take a hand like 3467 and raise one limper late or open raise late and play it like you have 2347. this works especially well against players who play overly straightforward becouse they will never draw two against you past the second draw and they will never turn their hand into a snow.

fwiw, this isn't something to consider until you get to middle limit 2-7, but it is very important when you start playing exclusively people that understand the game fairly well.i'm up 200 today in 3 rotations 2 tabling while trying to hit silver star. i get to move to 2/4 soon, yay

[jmbreslin 0]

I haven't read the recent posts but I wanted to continue the discussion of value raising with 2-card draws in 2-7 a bit more. I finally found this answer to my main question in the draw poker resources thread:"So with a smooth 2 card 7 draw you have a 21.6% chance to improve to a 7 and a 21.6% chance to improve to an 8."This means that drawing with 234 (or 237, whatever) has roughly a 1 in 5 chance of completing a 7 or 8 low. Now that's not the complete picture because sometimes you won't complete the 7 or 8 but will still win the pot, but that's probably cancelled out by the times you do hit your 7 or 8 and still lose. So let's assume for the sake of argument that the 21.6% holds. That means 4 out of every 5 times you raise your good 2-card draw, you won't win the pot. In order for that to count as a value raise the pots have to be large enough the 1 in 5 times you win to make up for the 80% loss rate. How can that be possible?

[uncooper 1]

Now that's not the complete picture because sometimes you won't complete the 7 or 8 but will still win the pot, but that's probably cancelled out by the times you do hit your 7 or 8 and still lose.

Not at all! Aside from the fact that we are starting with smoother hands than our opponents and playing less pots OOP, we (presumably) save bets on losers and extract bets on winners. Otherwise we shouldn't be in the game.

[checkymcfold 0]

I haven't read the recent posts but I wanted to continue the discussion of value raising with 2-card draws in 2-7 a bit more. I finally found this answer to my main question in the draw poker resources thread:"So with a smooth 2 card 7 draw you have a 21.6% chance to improve to a 7 and a 21.6% chance to improve to an 8."This means that drawing with 234 (or 237, whatever) has roughly a 1 in 5 chance of completing a 7 or 8 low. Now that's not the complete picture because sometimes you won't complete the 7 or 8 but will still win the pot, but that's probably cancelled out by the times you do hit your 7 or 8 and still lose. So let's assume for the sake of argument that the 21.6% holds. That means 4 out of every 5 times you raise your good 2-card draw, you won't win the pot. In order for that to count as a value raise the pots have to be large enough the 1 in 5 times you win to make up for the 80% loss rate. How can that be possible?

you can win pots without making an 8.

[uncooper 1]

you can win pots without making an 8.

Especially when you have position on your opponents.

[Vick12 0]

I haven't read the recent posts

Poker will always be profitable....Carry on...

[gfdsa146 0]

I'm about to lose silver star

[blakheart 3]

i was watching the 2-7 videos by death donkey on deuces cracked and a big point that he makes over and over again is using bad one card draws to balance your range. you take a hand like 3467 and raise one limper late or open raise late and play it like you have 2347. this works especially well against players who play overly straightforward becouse they will never draw two against you past the second draw and they will never turn their hand into a snow.

good point, but in the hand that I referenced he played it really passively. If he had opened raised it and played it hard that would make sense. But he open limped and it really looked like he had what he had- a bad one card draw.

[jmbreslin 0]

you can win pots without making an 8.

Yes, but you'll also lose pots when you do make your 8. Regardless of how smooth you're drawing. There will be times when you hit your 23458 and lose to a 7 or 23568 and lose to 23458.I'm still trying to understand how raising 234 is a value raise when it only has a 21.6% chance of completing a 7 or 8. If you're relying too much on your ability to push people off hands and steal pots when you don't hit a 7 or 8, then how is it a value raise?

[antistuff 0]

Yes, but you'll also lose pots when you do make your 8. Regardless of how smooth you're drawing. There will be times when you hit your 23458 and lose to a 7 or 23568 and lose to 23458.I'm still trying to understand how raising 234 is a value raise when it only has a 21.6% chance of completing a 7 or 8. If you're relying too much on your ability to push people off hands and steal pots when you don't hit a 7 or 8, then how is it a value raise?

when you have the best hand you raise. when you are holding 234 you often have the best hand so you raise. its like raising ak in holdem. yes somebody with a rough pat nine is a favorite over me just like somebody with 22 is a favorite over ak. but who is going to pay who off? also, if you only raise with your pat hands and your one card draws i could annihilate you by raising every single time you limp and i think i can isolate you and snowing you no matter what i hold. deuces cracked has a free week thing going on right now. go sign up and watch the death donkey 2-7 videos, they are very good.

[jmbreslin 0]

when you have the best hand you raise. when you are holding 234 you often have the best hand so you raise. its like raising ak in holdem. yes somebody with a rough pat nine is a favorite over me just like somebody with 22 is a favorite over ak. but who is going to pay who off? also, if you only raise with your pat hands and your one card draws i could annihilate you by raising every single time you limp and i think i can isolate you and snowing you no matter what i hold. deuces cracked has a free week thing going on right now. go sign up and watch the death donkey 2-7 videos, they are very good.

You make a valid point about the metagame stuff, though I am playing at .10-.20 where metagame stuff takes a bit of a backseat. And I will check out the videos you mention.I don't want to beat this horse too much but I don't think the analogy to AK in hold 'em works very well. I think AK has far more value in hold 'em, especially in NLHE, than 234 does in 2-7. For one thing, AK has a 33% chance of pairing on the flop while 234 only has a 21.6% chance of completing a 7 or 8 low by the 3rd draw in 2-7. And unlike AK, 234 has to improve to win. Sure you'll sometimes win pots without hitting your 7 or 8, but it doesn't happen all that often at the micro limits where people don't fold their 9's, 10's and J's after the 3rd draw.Think about it from the other side. If I'm in a HU pot against someone drawing 2 on the first draw and I have a 9-low, I'll win the pot roughly 80% of the time if I just pat and call down. Won't that more than make up for the 21.6% of the time he hits his 7 or 8 and wins the pot?

[antistuff 0]

You make a valid point about the metagame stuff, though I am playing at .10-.20 where metagame stuff takes a bit of a backseat. And I will check out the videos you mention.I don't want to beat this horse too much but I don't think the analogy to AK in hold 'em works very well. I think AK has far more value in hold 'em, especially in NLHE, than 234 does in 2-7. For one thing, AK has a 33% chance of pairing on the flop while 234 only has a 21.6% chance of completing a 7 or 8 low by the 3rd draw in 2-7. And unlike AK, 234 has to improve to win. Sure you'll sometimes win pots without hitting your 7 or 8, but it doesn't happen all that often at the micro limits where people don't fold their 9's, 10's and J's after the 3rd draw.Think about it from the other side. If I'm in a HU pot against someone drawing 2 on the first draw and I have a 9-low, I'll win the pot roughly 80% of the time if I just pat and call down. Won't that more than make up for the 21.6% of the time he hits his 7 or 8 and wins the pot?

then why isn't it correct to raise people with rough nines and stand pat against their two card draws?

[jmbreslin 0]

then why isn't it correct to raise people with rough nines and stand pat against their two card draws?

I don't know - shouldn't it be correct?

[uncooper 1]

You make a valid point about the metagame stuff, though I am playing at .10-.20 where metagame stuff takes a bit of a backseat. And I will check out the videos you mention.I don't want to beat this horse too much but I don't think the analogy to AK in hold 'em works very well. I think AK has far more value in hold 'em, especially in NLHE, than 234 does in 2-7. For one thing, AK has a 33% chance of pairing on the flop while 234 only has a 21.6% chance of completing a 7 or 8 low by the 3rd draw in 2-7. And unlike AK, 234 has to improve to win. Sure you'll sometimes win pots without hitting your 7 or 8, but it doesn't happen all that often at the micro limits where people don't fold their 9's, 10's and J's after the 3rd draw.Think about it from the other side. If I'm in a HU pot against someone drawing 2 on the first draw and I have a 9-low, I'll win the pot roughly 80% of the time if I just pat and call down. Won't that more than make up for the 21.6% of the time he hits his 7 or 8 and wins the pot?

What kind of ranges are you putting your opponents on? When you hold 234 and raise, you pretty much have the best hand a ton of the time. The people who call your raise have hands like 863 and worse.* They face the same odds you do! It's not like 20% of the time you make an 8ob and the other 80% of the time your opponent does.Which brings us back to the value of your hand:- you will make more smoother hands than your opponent(s)- you will play smaller pots when your draws don't go well- you will play bigger pots when you have valuable discards and/or make what is favored to be the best hand at showdownLots of times you will make a 9, T, or J and bet it, pat it in position, and be a favorite to win the hand against 1 opponent drawing 1.*edit: and if they are flatting with their one card draws, then be delighted that they gave you a chance to catch up for free and stay at that table.

[jmbreslin 0]

**** these 2-card draws!Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit ($0.10/$0.20) (converter)SB ($5.09), Seat 1BB ($6.17), Seat 2UTG ($1.68), Seat 3MP ($4.70), Seat 4CO ($5.33), Seat 5Hero ($3.33), Seat 6Button at Seat 6.SB posts $0.05. BB posts $0.10. Hand: [4h Jh 4s 2d 3s]Round 1: (1.50 SB)UTG calls. MP folds. CO folds. Hero raises. SB calls. BB folds. UTG calls. SB takes 4. UTG takes 2. Hero discards Jh 4s. Hand: [4h 2d 3s Tc 5s]Round 2: (7.00 SB)SB checks. UTG checks. Hero bets. SB calls. UTG calls. SB takes 3. UTG takes 1. Hero discards Tc. Hand: [4h 2d 3s 5s 3d]Round 3: (5.00 BB)SB checks. UTG checks. Hero bets. SB calls. UTG raises. Hero calls. SB calls. SB takes 3. UTG stands pat. Hero discards 3d. Hand: [4h 2d 3s 5s 6d]Round 4: (11.00 BB)SB checks. UTG bets. Hero folds. SB raises. UTG calls. Total pot: (15.00 BB - $3)Results:Total pot $3 | Rake $0.14 SB had [4c 6c 2s 7s 3h] and won ($2.86) with Lo: 7,6,4,3,2UTG had [6h 4d 5c 8h 2h] and lost with Lo: 8,6,5,4,2

[uncooper 1]

**** these 2-card draws!Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit ($0.10/$0.20) (converter)SB ($5.09), Seat 1BB ($6.17), Seat 2UTG ($1.68), Seat 3MP ($4.70), Seat 4CO ($5.33), Seat 5Hero ($3.33), Seat 6Button at Seat 6.SB posts $0.05. BB posts $0.10. Hand: [4h Jh 4s 2d 3s]Round 1: (1.50 SB)UTG calls. MP folds. CO folds. Hero raises. SB calls. BB folds. UTG calls. SB takes 4. UTG takes 2. Hero discards Jh 4s. Hand: [4h 2d 3s Tc 5s]Round 2: (7.00 SB)SB checks. UTG checks. Hero bets. SB calls. UTG calls. SB takes 3. UTG takes 1. Hero discards Tc. Hand: [4h 2d 3s 5s 3d]Round 3: (5.00 BB)SB checks. UTG checks. Hero bets. SB calls. UTG raises. Hero calls. SB calls. SB takes 3. UTG stands pat. Hero discards 3d. Hand: [4h 2d 3s 5s 6d]Round 4: (11.00 BB)SB checks. UTG bets. Hero folds. SB raises. UTG calls. Total pot: (15.00 BB - $3)Results:Total pot $3 | Rake $0.14 SB had [4c 6c 2s 7s 3h] and won ($2.86) with Lo: 7,6,4,3,2UTG had [6h 4d 5c 8h 2h] and lost with Lo: 8,6,5,4,2

I think I would 3bet after the 2nd draw for three reasons:- You have tossed away a 3, a 4, and a 6. These make your draw stronger. - UTG most likely has a rough 8 that he won't go multiple bets with on the end if we pick up a 7 or 8. *- And at this point we have to assume that SB has so little equity in the pot, that every bet he contributes is almost like free money.* this is villain dependent, as there are plenty of passive donks who would only c/r the nuts.

[Pdiddydog 0]

**** these 2-card draws!Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit ($0.10/$0.20) (converter)SB ($5.09), Seat 1BB ($6.17), Seat 2UTG ($1.68), Seat 3MP ($4.70), Seat 4CO ($5.33), Seat 5Hero ($3.33), Seat 6Button at Seat 6.SB posts $0.05. BB posts $0.10. Hand: [4h Jh 4s 2d 3s]Round 1: (1.50 SB)UTG calls. MP folds. CO folds. Hero raises. SB calls. BB folds. UTG calls. SB takes 4. UTG takes 2. Hero discards Jh 4s. Hand: [4h 2d 3s Tc 5s]Round 2: (7.00 SB)SB checks. UTG checks. Hero bets. SB calls. UTG calls. SB takes 3. UTG takes 1. Hero discards Tc. Hand: [4h 2d 3s 5s 3d]Round 3: (5.00 BB)SB checks. UTG checks. Hero bets. SB calls. UTG raises. Hero calls. SB calls. SB takes 3. UTG stands pat. Hero discards 3d. Hand: [4h 2d 3s 5s 6d]Round 4: (11.00 BB)SB checks. UTG bets. Hero folds. SB raises. UTG calls. Total pot: (15.00 BB - $3)Results:Total pot $3 | Rake $0.14 SB had [4c 6c 2s 7s 3h] and won ($2.86) with Lo: 7,6,4,3,2UTG had [6h 4d 5c 8h 2h] and lost with Lo: 8,6,5,4,2

I would check the turn after UTG takes only one, if you’re ahead your only marginally ahead. But I like that you are getting more aggressive