Me Thinks Weird Spot

[meservery 0]

CO is laggy. No read on UTG.Poker StarsPot Limit Omaha Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.505 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $86.40CO: $48.65Button: $42.50Hero: $93.05BB: $64.80Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K 9 8 A UTG raises to $1.5, CO raises to $2.5, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.Flop: Q K 5 ($8, 3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets $5.5, Hero calls, UTG raises to $21.5, CO folds, Hero...--Also what about preflop?

[ROBBBIGG 0]

normally i fold pre, but with tptk i stick it in

[bdc30 0]

Yeah I prob ship it in too.

[BigLebowski 0]

I fold PF, but on flop.....

Yeah I prob ship it in too.

[timwakefield 68]

Preflop you should probably fold but that's not too important to the discussion imo. I don't see this as an easy shovel at all. We need some info on villain. If he's a tight player then I can't see shoving as a good play. He's repping a set or a monster draw, and if he does have KKK or QQQ or even 555 then we have what amounts to a bad flush draw (bad because the board pairing kills it). If he has a big draw then we're maybe flipping a coin, and maybe 60/40ish either ahead or behind depending, although it's hard to think of too many hand he has that we're well ahead of. KTJx with spades (and similar hands) might go broke against us there, but how many other hands like that are there? Both us and villain are deep, so if we repot and he shovels it in he has a set most likely, or a very strong draw. I would say we should call this bet and hope he goes broke on a spade. I think it is a mistake to look at a pot like this as one we 'have to win,' or should willingly go broke on the flop with.

[meservery 0]

meh... assume i make 2 calls on the flop, basically flipping my hand over. and now.Poker StarsPot Limit Omaha Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.505 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $86.40CO: $48.65Button: $42.50Hero: $93.05BB: $64.80Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K 9 8 A UTG raises to $1.5, CO raises to $2.5, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.Flop: Q K 5 ($8, 3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets $5.5, Hero calls, UTG raises to $21.5, CO folds, Hero calls.Turn: A ($56.5, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $39, Hero raises all-in $69.05

[antistuff 0]

i lead the flop for whatever round number is nearest to 3/4 pot.

[timwakefield 68]

meh... assume i make 2 calls on the flop, basically flipping my hand over. and now.Poker StarsPot Limit Omaha Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.505 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $86.40CO: $48.65Button: $42.50Hero: $93.05BB: $64.80Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K 9 8 A UTG raises to $1.5, CO raises to $2.5, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.Flop: Q K 5 ($8, 3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets $5.5, Hero calls, UTG raises to $21.5, CO folds, Hero calls.Turn: A ($56.5, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $39, Hero raises all-in $69.05

You make a good point with the bolded, but that doesn't make shoving the flop a better option. Because of how thin the value of your hand is here, I almost suggested that simply folding to the check-raise might be an option, but then thought against it. You know he's gonna shove any safe turn (or turn that helped him), so you've only got one card to make your flush. Then you have to weigh how likely it is that he pays you when you do hit, assuming that some of the time he will simply be done with the pot when a spade turns. So in other words it's a very iffy spot imo, but the solution to me is certainly NOT to reshove the flop. Just because we're caught in a sticky spot with a strong draw doesn't mean we should just shove and pray. Again, I see us as being solidly behind most of villain's range. Regarding the action here ^^^, fold the turn. If we assume that top 2 is no good, you have 12 outs once. You're not getting any kind of odds, and there's no reason to believe that your opponent DIDN'T make broadway. And if he doesn't have a straight he likely has a set with that line.

[iggymcfly 0]

WTF were you doing check/calling the flop in the first place? That's awful. Either lead or C/R.

[meservery 0]

Preflop you should probably fold but that's not too important to the discussion imo. I don't see this as an easy shovel at all. We need some info on villain. If he's a tight player then I can't see shoving as a good play. He's repping a set or a monster draw, and if he does have KKK or QQQ or even 555 then we have what amounts to a bad flush draw (bad because the board pairing kills it). If he has a big draw then we're maybe flipping a coin, and maybe 60/40ish either ahead or behind depending, although it's hard to think of too many hand he has that we're well ahead of. KTJx with spades (and similar hands) might go broke against us there, but how many other hands like that are there? Both us and villain are deep, so if we repot and he shovels it in he has a set most likely, or a very strong draw. I would say we should call this bet and hope he goes broke on a spade. I think it is a mistake to look at a pot like this as one we 'have to win,' or should willingly go broke on the flop with.

WTF were you doing check/calling the flop in the first place? That's awful. Either lead or C/R.

I thought this was a weird spot. But do I make it a weird spot by my double flat call on the flop? So to make things easier should I just always lead or CR... and not experiment with different lines???