CobaltBlue 662 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Bodog 5/10 NLHE (5-handed)UTG $1432Cobalt $945Button $2037SB $1187BB $2358Cobalt is CO w/ . Image is TAG. UTG is LAG and sometimes borders on maniacal. Button is weak-tight. SB and BB are loose-passive.Pre-flop:UTG raises to $35, Cobalt calls, 3 foldsFlop ($85): (2 players)UTG bets $70, Cobalt callsTurn ($225): (2 players)UTG checks, Cobalt bets $125, UTG callsRiver ($475): (2 players)UTG checks, Cobalt checksWe cool? Link to post Share on other sites
Metternich 0 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 seems standard as long as we're willing to snapfold that turn if raised Link to post Share on other sites
SCS 0 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 What is your read on UTG? Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Cobalt is CO w/ . Image is TAG. Button is LAG and sometimes borders on maniacal. Button is weak-tight.Which one of these buttons is really UTG? Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Which one of these buttons is really UTG?Given that the blinds come last, i'm guessing it's the first one, so he's LAG bordering on maniacal.I don't really want to bluff here, 1. Given that the turn completed a flush, there's a chance he's check/calling down with a king2. Also given that the turn made a 3 flush, he could think you floated the flop and turn with a big club and are now trying to bluff the river.3. I don't think a 6 is really that big a part of his range.4. You can't really put much pressure on him with just one bet (it's pretty easy to convince yourself to call if you were him in this spot)5. Although you may play hands this way, to a pretty simple thinker you're not representing a particulary big hand as you never raised anywhere and bet hald pot on the turn, I think he will be very curious if you bet the river and want to look you up lighter.6. You have a tiny bit of showdown value Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 What is your read on UTG? Which one of these buttons is really UTG?Blah. Fixed. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Well, unless he had a flush or the naked Ac, we're not winning. That's the bad news. The other bad news is that he's never folding a hand better than ours. So checking is good. There really isn't any good news.The hand looks good all around actually. Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Well, unless he had a flush or the naked Ac, we're not winning. That's the bad news. The other bad news is that he's never folding a hand better than ours. So checking is good. There really isn't any good news.The hand looks good all around actually. I know you like to bet small, but I really think you could do with a bigger bet on the turn Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 could alwyas make an ambitious shovebut i wouldn't count on anyone folding trips here Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 could alwyas make an ambitious shovebut i wouldn't count on anyone folding trips hereI think this is QQ or JJ with a club a lot honestly, and if not, AcQx or AcJx. If you're thinking of betting the river, you better be sure he's likely to fold QQ or JJ here enough to make it +EV. It probably is, but I don't think I'm good enough to bluff shove this board. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Just for the sake of discussion, if I did decide to bet this river, I don't see why I need to shove. I have $715 left. I could make a bet of $275 or something. Link to post Share on other sites
whatgreatis 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Just for the sake of discussion, if I did decide to bet this river, I don't see why I need to shove. I have $715 left. I could make a bet of $275 or something.I don't think there's any value in a bet. You played the hand well.Just for discussion, would anyone raise the flop? If the manaic can find the fold button once in a while I think it has some merit. Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 really marchant? I'd rather bet 388 into 475 there. I keep my valuebet and bluff sizes the sameand fwiw, I wouldn't try bluffing off qq or jj here unless he can find the fold button. It's really dependent on game flowactually, given the bet sizes, I think marchant can pull it off here w/the 275 bet (to fold out qq/jj). You have to think the guy has TT-QQ, and AA, and kq/kj, and AK as well because all those hands will play it the same on this turn card. Some people will bet/fold trips there but I think a bad lag will just c/c.Anyhow, when you see a competent player underbet like that, it is pretty scary. And yes marchant, you are underbetting the turn. But the reason why a 275 bet here can work is that it's really consistent with his line. The cold call preflop and the call on the flop gives merit to his range of KQ, flush draws, and KJ. The guy won't give you credit for a boat because he's going to think you raise the flop every single time with a boat. Underbetting is quite scary here becuase when a competent person does it, it generally seems like it's always always always for value. I don't know how marchant's session has been going but if he's been showing down hands that were betting for value, a 3 barrel bluff here is pretty sick. I mean a 275 bet here on the just HAS to look like its for value, whether it is trips or a flush.That said, if he's a bad lag, this is no good. Anytime you have someone thinking "oh man what should I do" rather than "wow I should probably fold" at first thought, it's probably not a very good bluff. Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I don't think there's any value in a bet. You played the hand well.Just for discussion, would anyone raise the flop? If the manaic can find the fold button once in a while I think it has some merit.there isn't any value in a bet. It's discussing whether or not to fire another one to bluff Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 there isn't any value in a bet. It's discussing whether or not to fire another one to bluffI'm 100% certain he meant Value as in being +EV via him folding enough, not as in betting to get called Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm 100% certain he meant Value as in being +EV via him folding enough, not as in betting to get calledah i see. If that's the case, it'd be more correct to say "I don't think we have enough fold equity if we fire the river" or something like that. It's very important to separate the two. You need to be very clear of what your intention is when you bet. Link to post Share on other sites
whatgreatis 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm 100% certain he meant Value as in being +EV via him folding enough, not as in betting to get calledYeah that's what I meant but I didn't make myself clear. I don't think we can make him fold something like 1010 here enough to bet. I would just hope he called turn with Ac and check river behind.I don't think we have enough fold equity if we fire the river Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 really marchant? I'd rather bet 388 into 475 there. I keep my valuebet and bluff sizes the sameYeah, I keep my v-bets and bluffs the same also. Assuming I had a good value hand or a bluff, I'd guess that I'd bet anywhere from $275-$350...somewhat dependent on opponent. Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 unless you're bluffing a lot, I advise increasing your bet sizes Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 unless you're bluffing a lot, I advise increasing your bet sizesWe've been over this in here FWIW. Link to post Share on other sites
Snamuh 0 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 This looks good and standard. I think bluffing the river is pretty suicidal on this board. Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 We've been over this in here FWIW.we have? I forget the discussion Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Well, unless he had a flush or the naked Ac, we're not winning. That's the bad news. The other bad news is that he's never folding a hand better than ours. So checking is good. There really isn't any good news.The hand looks good all around actually.Trying to figure out what he C/C's the turn with and calls the river with. I would think Kings still bet this turn even though the turn completes a flush, and a flush would too. Does he really go into check/call mode for 2 streets with QQ- hoping to catch Cobalt with a smaller underpair? Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 we have? I forget the discussionSince I'm c-betting a lot and firing a lot, I won't have it a lot...therefore when I take shots, I prefer getting away with smaller bets since they're higher value. Additionally, the smaller bets act somewhat as pot control and give me more flexibility when playing hands. It may induce certain opponents to play back at me more, but if I can stand that heat (adapt to it and read correctly), I'm fine with it. Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Since I'm c-betting a lot and firing a lot, I won't have it a lot...therefore when I take shots, I prefer getting away with smaller bets since they're higher value. Additionally, the smaller bets act somewhat as pot and control and gives me more flexibility when playing hands. It may induce certain opponents to play back at me more, but if I can stand that heat (adapt to it and read correctly), I'm fine with it.you certainly make valid points and I'm sure it's fit your nicheas a counter-argument, and no I'm not trying to be a smartass here is that:if you start to develop really good reads and you read hands better than the other guy, the advantage of 3/4-pot sized bets, especially when you're in position, is that you can make his life hell by value betting correctly and also if you know his hand can't take much heat, then you can 3barrel and take down a sizable pot. It involves more risk but it seems to be a common trait of the better high stakes players Link to post Share on other sites
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