folding kk pre-flop in tourney?

[tampapoker 0]

I was playing today in a $140 buy in, 120 person tourney at the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Tampa, Florida. This tourney pays the top 12 players. I was in 8th place with $28,000 in chips (the blinds were $3000-$6,000 and there were 13 players left [including me]). I was two seats right of button and was dealt pocket KK. Player UTG goes all-in with $36,000. Player to my right calls all-in with approximately $33,000. Obviously, as long as this is not a split pot, if I fold here I will most definately make the money and get at least $260. If I call, I may triple up my stack and be in great position to make and dominate the final table. If I call and lose, however, I am out of the tourney in 19th position and lose my buy-in (and end my streak of placing in the money in 9 live MTT's in a row). So that was my analysis of the situation: did I want to ensure that I made it into the money or was I more concerned about being in strong chip position to make it to the final table. So, I guess the question for you is whether it is better to make the money or to be in strong enough chip position to make and dominate the final table? I ended up deciding to lay the hand down so I would be practically guaranteed a spot in the money. As it turns out, the UTG had QQ and the player to my right had AK suited. An ace came on the turn, so I would have lost. But, although I ended up making the correct play, was it the "right" play? Oh yeah, I made the final table, finished in 8th place (went all-in short stacked with A-K off and lost to 10's), and walked with $540.

[Vade 0]

It's a tournament. Unlike a cash game, there are plenty of spaces to fold KK preflop. Early in a tournament (or the bubble as here)with two allins, that's one of them. You can only call two allins with AA at that stage imo

[econ_tim 0]

Yeah, this is a pretty good survival play. If you care a lot more about winning big (i.e. 1st-3rd) than making the money then you should call here. Sounds like you did all right with 7 big blinds left in your stack. After player 13 is eliminate, of course, it is time to go all in with many hands.

[cdddc75 0]

Good fold.With all the other short stacks left and 2 players with bigger stacks than yours already pushed, I don't like calling all in there at all. I would assume one of them had aces and fold.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

At first, I didn't like it, but after thinking about it I agree with the fold; since everyone is on the bubble these all-ins (by rights) should be really big hands. The guy who called with AK is an idiot, IMO.

[tampapoker 0]

Agree. But, from an "EV" perspective was it really the right move. I was getting great value from a pot-odds perspective and, had I tripled my chip stack, I would have been the favorite for the $8,000 or so first prize. Is it worth sacrificing a few hundred dollars for the opportunity to make approximately 25x more? I knew that by making the play I was making I would have a minimal chance of taking the first prize. And, while I agree that it was relatively "loose" (to be politically correct) to move all in with a drawing hand in that stage of the tourney, was it a worse playto move all-in out of position with QQ? I think it was.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

This fold is okay to me, especially because both of them have you covered.

[Abbaddabba 0]

You would have to tell us the payout structure for us to judge it.It's most likely a bad fold.For it to be a good fold, it would require that the payout schedule is extremely smooth, whereby 12th (or the spots beside the bubble) get paid significantly more relative to the top positions, compared to typical payout structures. Even then, it's questionable.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

In a cash game, this would be a bad fold unless either of your opponents will hold aces somewhere around 60% of the time in this spot. Given that it's a tournament, in terms of overall EV this number will drop slightly (how much depends on the payout structure, as Abbaddabba said, as well as in what your chances to win or place high if you fold versus those same chances if you call and triple up).Factors in this case are that we're right on the bubble, so all-ins are risky, and that makes it more likely than normal that one of the opponents has the rockets. On the other hand, the realatively small stacks (relative to the blinds) make it less likely.So I think it's hard to say what the actual correct play is. Probably depends on how content you think the opponents would be in just making the money versus how likely they are to gamble on the bubble.

[slupo 0]

I'm going to disagree with the majority. You only had about 5x the big blind at that point in the tourney. That's pretty short stacked (don't know what the players above you had). The other two players were similarly short stacked (5-6x big blind).Normally, two all-ins before you is pretty scary. But since they are both short stacked,, you might think you have a good shot at having the best hand (which you did). The only hand you're scared of is AA and again, with the other all-ins being short stacks, it's not a guarantee someone's holding bullets. Your Kings were an incredibly strong hand.Regardless of how the hand turned out, I think calling would have been a good play. Because by folding, you are almost conceding you will finish with the lowest cash prize with only 5x the big blind (I know you finished 8th). When will Kings come again then? Going all in is the play to win big money.I always say if you're just playing to make your money back in a tournament, you should try a lower buy in tourney. To me there's no point in just doubling your buy in. Not worth my time.

[Guest Anonymous]

i made the mistake of going all in with kk in a home game with 2 short stacks all in and a big stack all in. ace 10 suited, ace q suited, and 88, the big stack with 88 made a straight on the turn.

[Monshroud 0]

I think your decision is really based on your objectives.If you just wanted to place "in the money" then you did the right thing, by letting others battle it out for the last money position you just about guaranteed your placing in the money.If your objective was to have the most in chips, you did have a monster hand, and I don't think anyone would really have put you down for calling with it.I personally don't like your whole streak thing. In the long run I don't feel that is a good indicator of success cause the fact of the matter is that sometimes you lose, no matter what cards you have or how well you played them. Basing a decision on "What if I break my streak?" is not a good thought process. Although kudos to you for being on a streak like that.Me personally, I like to place in the money, I think I would have layed it down too, but again I think that would depend on my reads of the people at the table.Monshroud~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[RISEorFall 0]

i made the mistake of going all in with kk in a home game with 2 short stacks all in and a big stack all in.  ace 10 suited, ace q suited, and 88, the big stack with 88 made a straight on the turn.

this is not a mistake. Just because the guy with 88 made a straight and you lost, you had by far the best hand going in. With 2 shorts stacks all in and a big stack call, there is no way i put someone on aces. 2 small stacks are desperate and big stack is using his chips to knock out players. the only way this is a bad play is if you put someone on aces and call anyway. If this is a tourney, by folding you only move up one spot, but by calling you can make a lot of chips if you win, and if you lose, you still have atleast that one bigger spot and maybe 2 bigger spots if both short stacks lose. Don't go by results, you made the right play. Just got unlucky.

[tampapoker 0]

Thanks for all the posts. In the end, I believe that I made a bad play here and the right play was to move-in with the KKs. I agree that a "streak" should not play into one's decision making, but it is, nonetheless, fun to be on one. Thanks again for all the posts and for your time.