Pre-flop Situation.

[Thriceknurd 0]

This hand happened with 6 players left in the tournament. Blinds are 500-1000. Average stack is I'd say around 11,000. I'm the SB sitting with 16,000 chips or so. Action is folded to me. I end up with pocket 8's. I raise to 3,500. BB then re-raises and moves all in with 10,000. About this player:Has been aggressive for most of the night. Player has raised preflop constantly and also has been caught bluffing on postflop. About 20 minutes earlier had moved all in preflop and was called, happened to have AK suited that hand. In other words, this guy could have anything. I really have no idea where I'm at, but with pocket 8's in this situation what do you feel is the best option.

[copernicus 0]

Other stacks and prize structure are needed to answer this.

[Thriceknurd 0]

Other stacks and prize structure are needed to answer this.

Tournament is a house game every Thursday night. Starting chips stack is 5,000. Blinds are 25-50 and are raised every 20 minutes. First hour rebuys are unlimited. This week started with 10 players. Regarding the other 4 stacks. 1 was short with 4,000 or so. Chip leader had roughly 20,000. The others to were also near 10,000-11,000. Top 3 payed out.$180$110$60Buyin is $25. Hope that helps.

[Thriceknurd 0]

LOL I just realized it seems odd seeing how the tourney started with 10 and I'm talking about a situation with 6 players. To put things in perspective, this is like 2 1/2 hours in so it felt like a late stage in the tournament. Also with the blinds at that high it was a totally different game. I'm basically trying to get feedback in this particular situation.

[fckthis 0]

pretty easy call imo

[DelftDragons 0]

You where short on 4000 and raised 3.500?So did you have only 500 left for his all-in?I assume you had 7.500 and bet 3.500 out, so after your bet you had 4000 left.The thing I feel is what are you trying to accomplish with betting half your stack pre-flop.a) you want him to foldB) get calledc) get re-raised and raceSituation C happens so because you post this it seem that is not what you where looking for. look at option B. What board could make you give up the hand? 3 overcards or something? You are playing out of position and an aggressive player as he is would almost certainly raise the flop. And since you have no idea what he has even one overcard could get you in trouble. But by laying it down you just wasted half your stack.IMO you should have either smooth called preflop and check-raise all-in if he raises or see the flop and on a good flop move all-in.Or my preference just move all-in preflop and let the chips fall where they may, where my hope would be for him to fold.

[cheesies 0]

You where short on 4000 and raised 3.500?So did you have only 500 left for his all-in?

This hand happened with 6 players left in the tournament. Blinds are 500-1000. Average stack is I'd say around 11,000. I'm the SB sitting with 16,000 chips or so.

It's a call, especially if he's known to makes moves preflop. With 10bb effective stacks you could've shoved pre if you want, but raising and letting a weaker hand shove over the top is ok. The advantage in shoving is that you stop junk hands like J9 shoving and thinking they have fold equity, whilst actually flipping against us. I'm probably shoving pre for this reason. But we're not folding a mid pocket for 6.5bbs more, getting over 2:1. Call, and win the race obv

[DelftDragons 0]

Ok, I misread"1 was short with 4,000" with "I was short with 4000".With 16k it makes more sense.

[DonkSlayer 1]

In this particular situation it's a call. I think if we had a few more chips and the blinds situation was slower, we could lay it down, but we're already invested and with the blinds moving so fast for a live game and the aggro tendencies of the player, we have to make the call. I wouldn't figure we're way ahead more than 20% of the time here though.

[copernicus 0]

I would only raise to 2500, fold to the repush. Stacks are pretty tightly bunched to be making calls with a coinflip at best hand.If you only get called Id push most flops (any paired board except Aces, any board with 1 non-Ace broadway).

[cheesies 0]

I would only raise to 2500, fold to the repush. Stacks are pretty tightly bunched to be making calls with a coinflip at best hand.

Wow. really? Folding 88 with 10bb effective stacks is just weak/tight play. Ax and 22-77 are all possible. Lots of the flipping hands will only be in his range becuase you are opening a restealing opportunity for him, which you can eliminate by pushing. Shoving is far far better than raise/folding. Assign him any calling range you like and it's profitable.

[copernicus 0]

Wow. really? Folding 88 with 10bb effective stacks is just weak/tight play. Ax and 22-77 are all possible. Lots of the flipping hands will only be in his range becuase you are opening a restealing opportunity for him, which you can eliminate by pushing. Shoving is far far better than raise/folding. Assign him any calling range you like and it's profitable.

Yes, open shoving is narrowly better on ICM, but 10bbs is still enough to play poker and do better than ICM against most players.Calling his shove here is negative EV up to a pushing range of 10%, which isnt too tight given that youve shown strength.

[rog 0]

I would only raise to 2500, fold to the repush. Stacks are pretty tightly bunched to be making calls with a coinflip at best hand.If you only get called Id push most flops (any paired board except Aces, any board with 1 non-Ace broadway).

I don't know about folding to the repush (really I don't...not saying it's wrong), but I agree the bet sizing is all wrong here. 2500 is about right because it gives you the option of folding. The key mistake in this hand is not planning ahead. Due to the stack sizes, you should already know what you're planning to do in the case of a reshove. Opening for 3.5BB as 35% of the BB's stack is very very awkward. If I were planning on calling a shove, I'd probably just be shoving anything less than a monster. If I were planning on folding to a shove, I'd be betting less.

[fckthis 0]

6handed and u wanna raise and fold to a push ? thats some pretty terrible advice.

[copernicus 0]

6handed and u wanna raise and fold to a push ? thats some pretty terrible advice.

do the math. Its not.

[MovingIn 0]

It really is not. Think about prize pool equity. Do we want to risk much or all of what we have on a middle pair if there's a strong chance we're not ahead by much, if at all? I'd say no.

[fckthis 0]

do the math. Its not.

considering we get shoved into by hands we dominate, and that we are racing against, it would be foolish for a raise/ fold here. equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 57.434% 57.05% 00.38% 2162760396 14576724.00 { 88 }Hand 1: 42.566% 42.18% 00.38% 1599127212 14576724.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }here's an extremely wide range of hands that described villian might shove. raise fold sucks, and im sticking by that. shoving pf is the best tho

[copernicus 0]

considering we get shoved into by hands we dominate, and that we are racing against, it would be foolish for a raise/ fold here. equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 57.434% 57.05% 00.38% 2162760396 14576724.00 { 88 }Hand 1: 42.566% 42.18% 00.38% 1599127212 14576724.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }here's an extremely wide range of hands that described villian might shove. raise fold sucks, and im sticking by that. shoving pf is the best tho

If you suck at post flop and short stack poker yes, shoving pf is the best. If youre good at either and realize that 10 bbs is enough to play poker with, then raise. Once he pushes, do the ICM, not just chip equity, and folding is clearly right against reasonable pushing ranges.

[MovingIn 0]

More questions to ponder:You have villain overshoving your raise 28.8% of the time from the BB. Do we expect a villain to overshove that frequently from the BB?Does this villain fold to a shove? What does he call us with, and how does that range play vs 88?Overall, I'm still not seeing that great of an edge here, in a flip for most of our chips if we call a shove, or get called if we open shove.The most important question we need to ask here: Do we seriously believe this is our best chance at substantially increasing our piece of the prize pool pie?

[copernicus 0]

More questions to ponder:You have villain overshoving your raise 28.8% of the time from the BB. Do we expect a villain to overshove that frequently from the BB?Does this villain fold to a shove? What does he call us with, and how does that range play vs 88?Overall, I'm still not seeing that great of an edge here, in a flip for most of our chips if we call a shove, or get called if we open shove.The most important question we need to ask here: Do we seriously believe this is our best chance at substantially increasing our piece of the prize pool pie?

iThe ICM equity for a push is interesting here. It is highest when he is extremely tight, gets lower to a calling range of about 30%, and then increases again as he gets very loose. It is always positive, but its maximum value for any reasonable range is 3% of the prize pool when he folds everyting but AA, KK...ie all of the value is in fold equity. At 10bbs I think 88 has more value played than just FE.

[Thriceknurd 0]

Yes, open shoving is narrowly better on ICM, but 10bbs is still enough to play poker and do better than ICM against most players.Calling his shove here is negative EV up to a pushing range of 10%, which isnt too tight given that youve shown strength.

Wow this turned out to be quite a discussion. Copernicus could you please elaborate on this post? How do you figure what is negative EV in this situation? It's an honest question and I'd really like to know especially if it'll improve my game. Also, What does ICM mean? Never have seen the acronym before.As for the results of the hand. After some thought I made the call. Villian was holding JJ's. I got very lucky and hit an 8 on the river which knocked the villian out. My reasons for calling included players aggressive image and knowing that if I lost this hand I still had 6,000 (6BB) behind.

[copernicus 0]

Wow this turned out to be quite a discussion. Copernicus could you please elaborate on this post? How do you figure what is negative EV in this situation? It's an honest question and I'd really like to know especially if it'll improve my game. Also, What does ICM mean? Never have seen the acronym before.As for the results of the hand. After some thought I made the call. Villian was holding JJ's. I got very lucky and hit an 8 on the river which knocked the villian out. My reasons for calling included players aggressive image and knowing that if I lost this hand I still had 6,000 (6BB) behind.

ICM=independent chip model it determines $ equity in final table situations based on calling/pushing ranges assuming equal ability. It also can be used to develop the unexploitable push/fold or calling a push strategy for the given prize structure, stacks and your hand. The basis of the model is that your chances of winning are proportional to you chip stack vs the total chips out. Your 2d place chances = the sum of your chances if each other player finishes first and you win 2d in proportion to the remaining stacks, etc.Sit n Go Analyzer (S nGPT, PT = power tools)and Sit n Go End Game Tools are two ICM based models. SnGEGT can be used real time, SnGPT is more for learning, and has good tutorials.

[fckthis 0]

If you suck at post flop and short stack poker yes, shoving pf is the best. If youre good at either and realize that 10 bbs is enough to play poker with, then raise. Once he pushes, do the ICM, not just chip equity, and folding is clearly right against reasonable pushing ranges.

postflop poker with villian holdin 10bbs? ummm ok.

[Sheiky 0]

He has ten BBs, just shove when it's folded to you.