Tjs Turns Straight On 3 Flush Board

[BuffDan 0]

This is a hand where an interesting situation came up. I am new to the table, so no read. Do we raise here or just call, and if we do raise, are we folding to a reraise (which would essentially be a push given our stack size)? I can see raising to charge a naked flush draw, but are we comfortable putting a lot of money in when we could be drawing dead?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)CO ($55.40)Hero ($50)SB ($45.05)BB ($82.80)UTG ($49.75)MP ($50)Preflop: Hero is Button with J , T . 2 folds, CO raises to $1.5, Hero calls $1.50, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1.Flop: ($6) 9 , 3 , 7 (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero checks.Turn: ($6) 8 (4 players)SB checks, BB bets $4.5, CO folds, Hero ??

[NoBBiR 0]

Raise/fold.

[StilettoNole 0]

Raise for sure. I never flat call with a made hand.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Raise for sure. I never flat call with a made hand.

What are you going to raise to that doesn't get it in on the river? I'm a little bit about pot control here.

[Webslinger516 0]

Raise to $14. If he calls, don't put any more money into the pot. If he raises, insta-muck. I don't think he reraises with anything you beat here. He'd be pretty foolish to put in a reraise with lower straight, set or top two.

[Webslinger516 0]

What are you going to raise to that doesn't get it in on the river? I'm a little bit about pot control here.

The thing I don't like about flat-calling is that it allows that person to draw to a stronger hand than ours. If he has like A9 with an ace of clubs, a set, top two pair, then we're not charging him to see the river.If we flat call and a club hits the board, then we effectively gave away the pot, right? If we raise and he folded his flush draw, then we protected our hand well. That's my thinking.

[Sheiky 0]

I think anyone who doesn't raise this is completely nuts, in a bad way.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

What are you going to raise to that doesn't get it in on the river? I'm a little bit about pot control here.

I'm all about getting money out of hands that will still attempt to draw against me on the turn but not the river.I agree, raise now, and don't put another dime in the pot after you make the raise. $12 sounds good... it's about the size of a river bet i'd expect from him, and it gives us control of how much we want to pay.

[Sheiky 0]

Make it $20.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Turn: ($6) 8 (4 players)SB checks, BB bets $4.5, CO folds, Hero ??

.... fellas ..... the villain has already set a bad price for a flush draw for HIMSELF here ... I don't care if he bets and I call or I bet and he calls ... if he's drawing to a one card flush, he's set himself a bad price here. Fact is, I don't like that this is an action card for the villain, and I'm going to slow down and not set myself up to get stacked here.

[Sheiky 0]

.... fellas ..... the villain has already set a bad price for a flush draw for HIMSELF here ... I don't care if he bets and I call or I bet and he calls ... if he's drawing to a one card flush, he's set himself a bad price here. Fact is, I don't like that this is an action card for the villain, and I'm going to slow down and not set myself up to get stacked here.

There's a massive differene between making a +EV decision and making the decision that gives you the most EV.

[mtdesmoines 3]

There's a massive differene between making a +EV decision and making the decision that gives you the most EV.

Right. He's now set a bad price to draw to a one card flush. Which I further interpret to mean that the villain's hand is already made in some way. If we shove, he may fold if he's drawing to a one card flush, but if we call and he whiffs, he may bluff into the nuts. Even further, if he's already there, one cent is a bad price for us. Why make it worse? I just think pot control is an OK strategy here. We'll keep playing and take our coolers where they're harder to see -- set over set -- top two v set, outdraws, etc. etc. etc. Why step on landmines we can see?

[Sheiky 0]

Right. He's now set a bad price to draw to a one card flush. Which I further interpret to mean that the villain's hand is already made in some way. Even further, if he's already there, one cent is a bad price for us. Why make it worse? I just think pot control is an OK strategy here. We'll keep playing and take our coolers where they're harder to see -- set over set -- top two v set, outdraws, etc. etc. etc. Why step on landmines we can see?

Him betting $4.5 on the turn doesn't in anyway mean his hand is 'made', i don't think there's anyway you can deduce what he's got from the information in the hand so far, he could be betting with a whole lot of hands here. Sorry but i think raising is just clearly the better play, you seem to be averse to getting coolered and prefer calling so you don't have to face that he may have a flush, but i think raising is so clearly better that i'm probably biased in another way somehow, i'd be interested to hear more opinions on this hand.

[sactownjoey 0]

Do we care that the SB is still in the hand? If the SB is fishing, do we want to give him odds to call by flatting here and do we disguise our hand better? As long as a we get a non club on the river that doesn't pair the board we might be able to get paid by a lot of hands we beat on the river by flatting.

[Webslinger516 0]

Right. He's now set a bad price to draw to a one card flush. Which I further interpret to mean that the villain's hand is already made in some way. If we shove, he may fold if he's drawing to a one card flush, but if we call and he whiffs, he may bluff into the nuts. Even further, if he's already there, one cent is a bad price for us. Why make it worse? I just think pot control is an OK strategy here. We'll keep playing and take our coolers where they're harder to see -- set over set -- top two v set, outdraws, etc. etc. etc. Why step on landmines we can see?

I agree that he set a bad price, but I'd rather give him a worse price to draw at it. Turn his mistake into a bigger mistake. I lean towards protecting my hand when I think I have the best of it. But I don't think calling here is terrible either.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I agree that he set a bad price, but I'd rather give him a worse price to draw at it. Turn his mistake into a bigger mistake. I lean towards protecting my hand when I think I have the best of it. But I don't think calling here is terrible either.

Again, villain checked the flop, lead the turn when we hit OUR card. Think it through ....

[Webslinger516 0]

Again, villain checked the flop, lead the turn when we hit OUR card. Think it through ....

Yeah here's where we differ in our philosophies. I see your point. But, I know I have the best hand on the turn here and I like to get value out of it where I have the best of it and he still wants to draw. If he hits the flush on the river, we're done with the hand or we pay him off, right? If he misses his flush, he's not calling anything on the river. I feel the turn is where we get the value for our hand.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Yeah here's where we differ in our philosophies. I see your point. But, I know I have the best hand on the turn here and I like to get value out of it where I have the best of it and he still wants to draw. If he hits the flush on the river, we're done with the hand or we pay him off, right? If he misses his flush, he's not calling anything on the river. I feel the turn is where we get the value for our hand.

You touched on one of my growing philosophies -- the critical nature of the turn card.

[Darth Maple 0]

Raise to $14. If he calls, don't put any more money into the pot. If he raises, insta-muck. I don't think he reraises with anything you beat here. He'd be pretty foolish to put in a reraise with lower straight, set or top two.

I'm with this, who's to say he is holding the Ac and is on the semi bluff.

[NoBBiR 0]

.... fellas ..... the villain has already set a bad price for a flush draw for HIMSELF here ... I don't care if he bets and I call or I bet and he calls ... if he's drawing to a one card flush, he's set himself a bad price here. Fact is, I don't like that this is an action card for the villain, and I'm going to slow down and not set myself up to get stacked here.

Were not getting stacked here by raising. We raise and fold if he reraises.If we go into pot control mode, are we supposed to call him down on the river too? Just raise. He's not going to shove on us with two pair/naked Ac here (he might with a set but he'd be stupid to), but he will call and we get value. c/c twice is really weak, and we're just basically guessing at what he has.

[Hector Cerif 0]

Yeah here's where we differ in our philosophies. I see your point. But, I know I have the best hand on the turn here...

We don't know if we have the best hand here.Heres how the hand plays out based on what he could have:any set- we call his bet, check to him on the river and it looks to him like we had a naked ace and he makes a value betnaked ace flush draw- we call, river fills him we fold, river misses him he bluffs into us and we take the potmade flush- we call, another club hits the river we fold, river misses we call the exact same size bet everyone is saying we should have made on the turn.Calling is clearly the better move imo.

[BuffDan 0]

We don't know if we have the best hand here.Heres how the hand plays out based on what he could have:any set- we call his bet, check to him on the river and it looks to him like we had a naked ace and he makes a value betnaked ace flush draw- we call, river fills him we fold, river misses him he bluffs into us and we take the potmade flush- we call, another club hits the river we fold, river misses we call the exact same size bet everyone is saying we should have made on the turn.Calling is clearly the better move imo.

I think you are making too many assumptions here; who is to say that a busted flush draw will bluff or that a set will bet again. Raising makes sure we get value from those hands while they are still drawing while also putting money in on our own terms. This also keeps us from guessing which he has on the river if a 4th club hits or the board pairs. And like you said, we put in the same amount of money versus a made flush.Anyways, in the actual hand I raised, he min-reraised me pretty fast, and I mucked, but I just hate folding hands like straights, so I wanted to check opinions here. If I can just make myself fold more often, I think I can remember how to make money in this game again.

[pokerkid 0]

I would definately raise the turn. He could have 65. Naked Ace of clubs. Ace of clubs with a pair.Easy raise.

[shinzilla 0]

Were not getting stacked here by raising. We raise and fold if he reraises.If we go into pot control mode, are we supposed to call him down on the river too? Just raise. He's not going to shove on us with two pair/naked Ac here (he might with a set but he'd be stupid to), but he will call and we get value. c/c twice is really weak, and we're just basically guessing at what he has.

This advice is spot on. Anyone who's advising otherwise is extremely wrong. You'd be wise to listen to this man.