Obama Exposed

[Nimue1995 1]

If I sound angry you're right. And basically I'm not really angry at you but more angry at this disease that isn't curable except for the minor possibility of a lung transplant if I could get my husband to agree to consider that. I'm angry that now that the kids are grown and we should have a chance to enjoy the fruits of our labors we're stuck with this friggin ass disease that's going to make that impossible. And that is probably the end of my posting on this subject though I won't guarantee that since I'm living with the anger now and it probably won't take a lot to set me off again. Anyway I play poker and I come here to take my mind off what's happening in my life right now, not sit at the computer crying my eyes out. So I'd prefer go on not thinking about it too much when I'm here.

[Loismustdie 0]

How many school districts in other states do you think would hire a terminally ill 56 year old school administrator? If you think there are any, then you're damned stupid. We're fortunate that he's still able to work at this point and we're really hoping that he'll be able to retire out of this position but we're not holding out a great deal of hope for that. And you're saying that pulling up stakes, leaving any friggin health care that we might have now and moving to another position in another state with no support system or family available at all is the solution. You're a damn sight stupider than your posts would indicate if you think that would be a solution. For one thing, any health care he'd get in another position would EXCLUDE PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS. This would mean that anything to do with his IPF would be excluded. ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT WE SHOULD MOVE SO THAT WHAT LITTLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE WE HAVE NOW WOULD BE ELIMINATED ENTIRELY? Good Lord you're an idiot if you think that's even worth considering.

No. That choice should have been made a long time ago. Now you just need to find a way to come to terms with reality. Right now you are somewhere in between denial and placing blame. That's a natural thing to do. You are obviously in alot of pain. Maybe a therapist would be a good idea?

[gobears 0]

If I sound angry you're right. And basically I'm not really angry at you but more angry at this disease that isn't curable except for the minor possibility of a lung transplant if I could get my husband to agree to consider that. I'm angry that now that the kids are grown and we should have a chance to enjoy the fruits of our labors we're stuck with this friggin ass disease that's going to make that impossible. And that is probably the end of my posting on this subject though I won't guarantee that since I'm living with the anger now and it probably won't take a lot to set me off again. Anyway I play poker and I come here to take my mind off what's happening in my life right now, not sit at the computer crying my eyes out. So I'd prefer go on not thinking about it too much when I'm here.

I'm sorry to hear of your situation - just sounds terrible. Have you checked out http://www.northwest-lung.org/?I'm guessing yes but it came up in a search that I did - at least maybe there are some folks there that you can talk to to find out all your options. Take Care and I hope that things work out

[Johan 0]

I see a lot of people here bashing the social health care. I live in a country that has social health care, and I can't imagine living without it. I would much rather pay a small amount more in taxes than having to pay for health insurance. We also have free education, and the american (and most of the world i would think) system sounds devastating for people with 3-4 or more kids that can't get scholarships etc.It's not like you can't have both private and social health care. We have both. My father is a doctor and has worked in both private and public hospitals. He even worked for both at the same time for a while, but that's illegal now for some reason. My girlfriends mother works as a nurse for cancer patients, so I would say my knowledge of the "health care industry" is fairly good.I don't really see how the waiting lines would get any longer in the US if you got social health care? The hospitals still gets the same amount of money. The difference is it's the government that gives it to them.Rich people can still use the private hospitals if they want to. It's the same care, you just skip the waiting list, wich doesn't have to be that long.. I haven't heard anyone complain about waiting lists in this country for over 10 years.To sum it up: Social health care is amazing, and you're missing out.

[hblask 1]

I don't really see how the waiting lines would get any longer in the US if you got social health care? The hospitals still gets the same amount of money. The difference is it's the government that gives it to them.

Ah, what a nice fallacy. Under socialized medicine, the gov't doesn't just have an open-ended liability to pay for any procedure, medicine, or treatment that anyone wants. Instead, what is and is not treated is decided by bureaucrats based on who contributed to their re-election campaign, and whether they think they can get away with voting for a tax increase.With free markets, doctors are forced to compete for patients by providing the services people want at prices they can afford.With socialized medicine, doctors are forced to either accept what the gov't decides is an appropriate payout (one size fits all, regardless of whether it's an expensive urban are or inexpensive rural area). Hospitals allocate resources not on illnesses, but on political whim of the year. Under socialized medicine, doctors do not choose which specialty to practice based on the economics of supply and demand, but instead on the political reality of which politicians favorite cause wins the day. That's great if you are a heart patient and the head of the Health Funding Committee is an ex heart surgeon; not so good if you are a cancer or AIDS patient.

Rich people can still use the private hospitals if they want to. It's the same care, you just skip the waiting list, wich doesn't have to be that long.. I haven't heard anyone complain about waiting lists in this country for over 10 years.

Under Hillary's plan from a decade ago, both doctor and patient would go to prison for attempting to bypass the waiting lists. In reality what tends to happen is politicians and their cronies get to bypass the list while normal people suffer.

[akoff 0]

I think there are more people in NY then Norway....

[Johan 0]

Ah, what a nice fallacy. Under socialized medicine, the gov't doesn't just have an open-ended liability to pay for any procedure, medicine, or treatment that anyone wants. Instead, what is and is not treated is decided by bureaucrats based on who contributed to their re-election campaign, and whether they think they can get away with voting for a tax increase.My father is the one that puts up the schedule for surgeries in his hospital. As far as I know they treat everyone they have the expertise to treat. If they don't they send them by helicopter or plane to another hospital with more competent doctors on the specific field. Sometimes if it's a very rare illness or injury they are sent to another country.You pay taxes for the care you and those around you get. It's the same system that the insurance business, except now no private company ends up with a maaaajor profit. If your gov't is the problem, then fix that.With free markets, doctors are forced to compete for patients by providing the services people want at prices they can afford.It's already payed for, so you don't have to "afford" anything.With socialized medicine, doctors are forced to either accept what the gov't decides is an appropriate payout (one size fits all, regardless of whether it's an expensive urban are or inexpensive rural area). Hospitals allocate resources not on illnesses, but on political whim of the year. Under socialized medicine, doctors do not choose which specialty to practice based on the economics of supply and demand, but instead on the political reality of which politicians favorite cause wins the day. That's great if you are a heart patient and the head of the Health Funding Committee is an ex heart surgeon; not so good if you are a cancer or AIDS patient.A doctor in socialized medicine has a good salary in this country. He makes more than enough to make it in Oslo, one of the most expensive city's in the world. Basic salary is ~1 million NOK, wich is ~200 000$. My father, who is chief of surgery makes ~1,5-1,6 mill NOK. No reason to complain no matter where you live.If you specialize as a brain surgeon, you of course have to work in a hospital that provides brain surgery. Some hospitals are smaller than others, so they can't all practice all kinds of medicine. I'm pretty sure it's the same way in America, even though you have only private health care.And are you implying that the government decides what fields doctors can specialize in? If there is a shortage of for example heart surgeons, of course the government is gonna try and recruit more heart surgeons. Both norwegian and foreign ones. The opposite if there is too many.It's not the soviet union, they don't tell you that you have to be a heart surgeon.Under Hillary's plan from a decade ago, both doctor and patient would go to prison for attempting to bypass the waiting lists. In reality what tends to happen is politicians and their cronies get to bypass the list while normal people suffer.Well, the king had a heart disease a couple years ago, and he skipped the line. But he is royalty, so it's ok;) Other than that you have to wait unless it's an emergency.But as i stated, if you are loaded, you can use the private hospitals.

Didn't read though what i wrote so it probably lacks context and has lots of type o's.

[Johan 0]

I think there are more people in NY then Norway....

A lot more I guess. 4,2 millions. Doesn't mean it can't work. You have a lot more taxpayers then we do. "Your" health is probably pretty crappy(generalization, bad diet, 60% fat people etcetc. Sorry if you are offended but this is what's said about the country), so the costs might be higher in relation to the population. Don't know if that last sentence makes any sense...

[Loismustdie 0]

A lot more I guess. 4,2 millions. Doesn't mean it can't work. You have a lot more taxpayers then we do. "Your" health is probably pretty crappy(generalization, bad diet, 60% fat people etcetc. Sorry if you are offended but this is what's said about the country), so the costs might be higher in relation to the population. Don't know if that last sentence makes any sense...

Freedom to choose ones own way is awesome. It takes a certain kind of person to want it, though. You are clearly not that guy.

[checkymcfold 0]

There is no reason for the federal government to be involved in education. Before it got involved, the US was a world leader in education. Each year, the federal gov't has gotten more involved, and the US moves down a few more steps on the world testing scores. But I suppose, like all the failed socialist programs, that it was 1) just a coincidence, and 2) not working because of the specific implementation, it just needs reform, and 3) an exception. Did you ever notice that EVERY big government program uses those excuses? How many trials do we give them before we figure out that maybe, just maybe, it's the system, not the specifics? There are many books on public choice theory; the real answer is explained there.

yes, there are reasons for the government to get involved in the lives of its citizenry in order to improve it. that is what the government is for. unless you really think that the moment someone is elected, s/he becomes the spawn of satan and rampages around the world ruining people's lives, which is honestly what i'm getting the impression you think sometimes.methinks you're mistaking a reaction for a cause.

As for whether Kansas should teach creationism, any parent who thinks their schools are teaching their specific values are in for a big shock. In the end, education is a PARENT's responsibility. It's bad enough when the state says it's theirs, but when the federal government takes control, parents have no say whatsoever. Why are you so afraid of creationist ideas? Do you think that children are mindless drones who will absorb whatever is told to them? I think kids should learn about science; they should learn about where creationism falls on the science spectrum. Kids should have all the information their parents want them to have; anyone who is waiting for the federal government to do that is going to end up with seriously dumb kids.

nope--to all of this, but mostly the bolded part. the government implemented social programs to help people who cannot care for themselves, and because the state of affairs without government help was called, um, the great depression. do you forget that, like, daily? as to children, yes, we are all passively learning drones to a fairly large degree when we're young. ask pretty much any psychologist, like, ever. otherwise we wouldn't need education at all, cuz we could just invent all our shit over and over again from generation to generation. the government, as the representative of human society writ large, has a stake in what children learn. meh re: creationism. personally, i think comparative religion courses should be implemented into a national curriculum, not that that'll ever happen.

I love how people promoting socialism at least have the sense to *pretend* it's not socialism. That means the good guys are winning the war of ideas; now we have to name it something else to even have it considered. But calling a pig a rose doesn't make it smell any better.In Canada, you are more likely to die of heart problems than you are to make it through the waiting list for heart surgery. Waiting lists for most specialties are over 6 months. Canadian medicine only works for people with no illnesses or minor illnesses. People with serious illnesses either die, suffer, or come to the US for treatment.

lol@that lie. that's just a lie, i can't respond in any other way.

In Canada, there are businesses that specialize in finding healthcare in the US for patients who can't get treatment in Canada due to long waiting lists. There is no such business in the US.

two. there are two. and both of them take people from the us through canada to cuba to get health care as well.

The poor performance of the veteran's hospital is 1) just a coincidence, and 2) not working because of the specific implementation, it just needs reform, and 3) an exception.

that would explain the VA internal review that found a dangerous number of problems with the VA health system, right? http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...va-review_N.htmfurthermore, i'm glad that you're able to selectively apply the bolded principle without considering the possibility that it might apply to satan-government as well.

So your theory is that, with all the technological changes that occur on a daily basis, that a distant bureaucrat is better able to make a decision on YOUR healthcare than you could make in a discussion between you and your doctor? Seriously? Congress? Smarter about medicine than my doctor? Your doctor? Any doctor? Please, you are smarter than this.

your use of this satanic bureaucrat figure working me over like a puppet is getting more and more obscure and silly. first, i elect the scary bureacrat man. there are mechanisms for holding this man accountable for his ****ups. if those mechanisms break, we can fix them without rebuilding the country from scratch.as to technology, the world is simply a different place than it was in the late 1700s. people travel from state to state multiple times each year, and it's only logical that we should become a stronger union under such conditions than we were in the days of horses and buggies. mk quoted slesinger earlier on this, and he's a hell of a lot more eloquent on this point than i could aspire to be.

You are suggesting using an atomic bomb to kill a gnat. The solution is simple: doctors get insurance; if a doctor does something that is inappropriate, the patient wins a malpractice suit and the doctor loses his job. Or are you claiming that when Teddy Kennedy writes a law in Washington DC, that doctors in Helena MT suddenly become competent and mistake free? If you have a theory for how this happens, I'd be interested in hearing it.I think an organization like the FDA needs to exist; in fact I think several of them should exist. I think we need to get it out of the hands of the least efficient organization in the United States, i.e., Congress.

so we should privatize the FDA, allow the same people who run drug companies to run the committees that oversee them, and just let things play out. gotcha.

Pollution is a special case, and I agree that we need regulation to control harm that is due not to malice but to normal secondary effects of life. My point here was that for the last 100 years, statists believed that a centrally-planned command-and-control model could solve all our problems. Here is a case where we find that, even in the areas that need to be regulated, the free market does a better job of solving the problem than central planners. It's good to see the democrats ever-so-slowly coming onboard.

corporations are around to make money. that is their primary concern, right? if we allow them to do whatever they want without outside observation, they will default to that privileged aim and ignore, or at the very least, disrespect, other concerns. this is why we have environmental regulations, and child labor laws, and human rights codes, etc. the free market tends towards these things (as history has shown us) and ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES regulation in order to retain some semblance of non-oligarchical society.

Once again, you can change the name to an obvious phenomenon all you want, but increasing taxes on additional money earned makes it less likely that people will put in the effort required to earn that extra dollar. You can call it "potato", or "magic fairy dust" or "helping the poor", but it doesn't change the fact that people change their behavior in response to the incentives placed before them, and that any claim of increasing tax revenue by taxing the rich that doesn't take into account the fact that the rich have the means to avoid those taxes is just plain fantasy.

again, overreaction. tax laws leave open loopholes, ergo, **** taxes altogether? this is simply not logical, and entirely akin to punching everyone in the face who gives you a dirty look. rework the tax laws such that loopholes don't exist for the rich and give them a dirty look back instead.

[nutzbuster 7]

[x] couldn't think of anything funnyoff to a home game with Mark. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Johan 0]

Freedom to choose ones own way is awesome. It takes a certain kind of person to want it, though. You are clearly not that guy.

I'm just saying what I've heard. I don't know for certain if it's true or not. But i am pretty sure I've seen statistics saying ~60% of americans are overweight( which doesn't mean you are a fat bastard, but have a high BMI).Since there is a lot of health issues that comes with being overweight I would imagine that costs would be higher. I'm speculating, not stating a fact.If you were talking about something else, please let me know. I'm pretty sure whatever it is, it's a misunderstanding..

[Nimue1995 1]

Suffer more than they do now? Com'on you've heard from someone with actual experience I've heard from someone with actual experience and you'd still rather believe in the "sky is going to fall" scare tactics of whatever websites you've been getting your information from. It's not new in a number of countries and it's actually working. Maybe it's not perfect but it's a hell of a lot better for the majority of the people than what happens here. Maybe if we had government run health care we'd actually be able to do away with all those little collection jars in the grocery stores for whichever child is ill with cancer or had an accident or needs a transplant. They're all over the place here and it says something about the health care in this country and it's supposed affordability that those little collection jars are deemed necessary. If you're a healthy young male with no history of health problems you might get screwed under government run health care. But there will come a time when you'll need it because EVERYONE eventually does. And when that time comes it'd be nice to be able to afford to stay alive.

[hblask 1]

Medicine in NorwayFrom the report:

OBJECTIVES: Norwegian health care has experienced problems with long and increasing waiting lists of patients, mainly in the orthopedic, gynecologic and urologic areas. To ensure that patients are offered treatment within reasonable time, a six months "waiting list guarantee" (WLG) was introduced in 1991. However, about 5% of the WLG patients have experienced broken WLGs in spite of numerous efforts to solve the problem by various stimulation initiatives by the health authorities.

Yeah, I can't wait unitl it takes six months to treat a bladder infection in the US. That will be great.

[hblask 1]

More recent data from another report:In Norway, the average wait time for the following procedures: hip replacement, knee replacement, cataract surgery, varicose veins, cholecystectomy, and inguinal and femoral herniais 4 months. Nothing like limping around on bad knees, half blind with a hernia for four months to make you love socialism.

[Nimue1995 1]

More recent data from another report:In Norway, the average wait time for the following procedures: hip replacement, knee replacement, cataract surgery, varicose veins, cholecystectomy, and inguinal and femoral herniais 4 months. Nothing like limping around on bad knees, half blind with a hernia for four months to make you love socialism.

Lol I limped around on bad knees for 5 YEARS before Blue Cross would agree to pay for my knee replacements. Give me a break. 4 months is nothing. It takes that long here once you're approved to even get the surgery scheduled. There's NO FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE. Take it from someone with REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE IN THE SITUATION!

[hblask 1]

yes, there are reasons for the government to get involved in the lives of its citizenry in order to improve it. that is what the government is for. unless you really think that the moment someone is elected, s/he becomes the spawn of satan and rampages around the world ruining people's lives, which is honestly what i'm getting the impression you think sometimes.

The FEDERAL government has no reason to be involved in education. Education has gotten consistently worse since they've gotten involved. I believe you've fallen prey to the "pouding rocks theory" again -- the strange notion that us poor stupid residents of the heartland will sit in caves in our own filth pounding rocks together until some wise, enlightened bureaucrat from the golden city of Washington DC shows us the way. Not only is it false, it's completely backward. Nobody loves their children more than the parents -- certainly not a distant, anonymous bureaucrat. The notion that forcibly taking money from someone, shipping it thousands of miles away, taking a cut of it, then sending it back with strings attached and bureaucrats making rules will somehow come up with a better result than local communities could produce on their own is far-fetched at best, and historically just plan wrong. It is simply NOT a coincidence that test scores are inversely related to the level of federal spending on education.Are we back to this again?: 1) just a coincidence, and 2) not working because of the specific implementation, it just needs reform, and 3) an exception.

nope--to all of this, but mostly the bolded part. the government implemented social programs to help people who cannot care for themselves, and because the state of affairs without government help was called, um, the great depression. do you forget that, like, daily? as to children, yes, we are all passively learning drones to a fairly large degree when we're young. ask pretty much any psychologist, like, ever. otherwise we wouldn't need education at all, cuz we could just invent all our shit over and over again from generation to generation. the government, as the representative of human society writ large, has a stake in what children learn. meh re: creationism. personally, i think comparative religion courses should be implemented into a national curriculum, not that that'll ever happen.

I fear for you having children someday if you think bureacrats are going to make them smart. Seriously, dude, check my thread about how they treated my son on his "plagiarism" assignment. Schools are doing a crappy job, and it's gotten worse as more federal strings have come attached. I have a sister who was teacher of the year in Wisconsin one year, and federal rules are one of the biggest impediments to her job.

lol@that lie. that's just a lie, i can't respond in any other way.

It's not hard to look up the record of Canadian healthcare; it's deplorable.

two. there are two. and both of them take people from the us through canada to cuba to get health care as well.

Nobody from the US ever goes to third world countries (such as Cuba) for healthcare, unless they are looking for a witch doctor to do voodoo on them.In the US, there are zero businesses to help US customers find care in Canada, despite our much larger population. Are you saying that having only two businesses that require Canadian citizens to avoid the harm of socialism is a GOOD thing? See, because I think zero is the correct amount of harm socialism should be allowed to cause.

that would explain the VA internal review that found a dangerous number of problems with the VA health system, right? http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...va-review_N.htm

I'm not sure your point here... are you saying that it's a good thing that some government run hospitals only suck a little worse than private hospitals, instead of a lot worse like some of the other ones they run?See, I don't want to go to a hospital that sucks at all.

your use of this satanic bureaucrat figure working me over like a puppet is getting more and more obscure and silly. first, i elect the scary bureacrat man. there are mechanisms for holding this man accountable for his ****ups. if those mechanisms break, we can fix them without rebuilding the country from scratch.

I'm sure that will be very reassuring to all the people who died from diseases that Congress decided not to cover in that particular year. "Well Bob, your disease used to be treatable, but Congress doesn't fund that anymore so you only have six months to live, because the treatment cost too much. But hey, don't worry, if you quit your job, attend all the party meetings, campaign like crazy, and spend tens of thousands of dollars, you may be able to have an impact on people who are dying of this 5 years from now. Well, assuming you were going to live that long. Aren't you glad you have accountable bureaucrats deciding your healthcare?"

so we should privatize the FDA, allow the same people who run drug companies to run the committees that oversee them, and just let things play out. gotcha.

No, it wouldn't be the same people, it would be an independent organization whose profit is directly tied to the quality of information they provide to consumers. If they provide bad information, they lose customers to other companies that provide better information. The customers are doctors and patients.Compare this to the FDA: their goal is to avoid creating a target for themselves -- the Cover Your Ass theory of regulation. If they approve something that 10 years later turns out to have an unforseen side effect, they look bad. If people die waiting for something to be approved, the problem is invisible. What kind of incentive is that -- to let lots of people die anonymously rather than a few die publicly?Why not just let information, doctors and patients decide? I don't need a bureaucrat (who neither me or my doctor has ever met) protecting me from truthful information.

again, overreaction. tax laws leave open loopholes, ergo, **** taxes altogether? this is simply not logical, and entirely akin to punching everyone in the face who gives you a dirty look. rework the tax laws such that loopholes don't exist for the rich and give them a dirty look back instead.

You missed the point: raising taxes on the rich does not raise that much money, because they have accountants and lawyers to avoid taxes, or just plains the means to avoid taxes. One year, my tax bill was over $60,000 (equivalent to over $80K today). Guess what? I never worked that hard again. Why would I? The point is that the theory of "taxing the rich" really means "pretend to tax the rich, but really tax the middle class."

[hblask 1]

Lol I limped around on bad knees for 5 YEARS before Blue Cross would agree to pay for my knee replacements. Give me a break. 4 months is nothing. It takes that long here once you're approved to even get the surgery scheduled. There's NO FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE. Take it from someone with REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE IN THE SITUATION!

I've never had to wait for any type of treatment. I had an achy shoulder, and got to see 4 doctors within a month. Out of breath? I walked from one appointment unannounced to another office and was seen within about 20 minutes for some high-tech scanning.If your doctors won't go to bat for you and your medicine, find a new doctor. Guess what: if you have a bad doctor under socialism, your results will be even worse.My brother is a veteran, and tried to get treatment for a shoulder injury through the VA system. It was bad enough that he was unable to work. He could not lift his arm above his shoulder. He finally had to give up, go back to school, and find a different job. The new job provided medical care, and he was treated within a couple months through private insurance. Let's see, NEVER, or QUICKLY. Hmmm, tough choice, but I'll vote for "keep you socialism off my body!!!!"

[Nimue1995 1]

I've never had to wait for any type of treatment. I had an achy shoulder, and got to see 4 doctors within a month. Out of breath? I walked from one appointment unannounced to another office and was seen within about 20 minutes for some high-tech scanning.If your doctors won't go to bat for you and your medicine, find a new doctor. Guess what: if you have a bad doctor under socialism, your results will be even worse.My brother is a veteran, and tried to get treatment for a shoulder injury through the VA system. It was bad enough that he was unable to work. He could not lift his arm above his shoulder. He finally had to give up, go back to school, and find a different job. The new job provided medical care, and he was treated within a couple months through private insurance. Let's see, NEVER, or QUICKLY. Hmmm, tough choice, but I'll vote for "keep you socialism off my body!!!!"

Let's see, it took 6 months of testing etc before Blue Cross approved my husband's lung biopsy so we could get a diagnosis of his IPF and stomach surgery. An appointment to have an achey shoulder looked at or being out of breath isn't surgery is it? Ask your doctor what the average waiting period is to have surgery in the hospital on that shoulder. Then you might actually be comparing apples to apples. In your example of Canadian healthcare you're talking about major surgery. Same as what I am talking about. But you give me an example of a doctor visit and try to compare the two. Apples to oranges I say.

[hblask 1]

Let's see, it took 6 months of testing etc before Blue Cross approved my husband's lung biopsy so we could get a diagnosis of his IPF and stomach surgery. An appointment to have an achey shoulder looked at or being out of breath isn't surgery is it? Ask your doctor what the average waiting period is to have surgery in the hospital on that shoulder. Then you might actually be comparing apples to apples. In your example of Canadian healthcare you're talking about major surgery. Same as what I am talking about. But you give me an example of a doctor visit and try to compare the two. Apples to oranges I say.

Surgery? Well, I had my appendix out 12 hours after I showed up at the hospital. My son has had ear surgery a number of times, each scheduled within a week or so. My wife had several major surgeries, each less than a week after diagnosis. My boss had lung surgery scheduled within a couple weeks after diagnosis. Any other questions?

[Nimue1995 1]

Surgery? Well, I had my appendix out 12 hours after I showed up at the hospital. My son has had ear surgery a number of times, each scheduled within a week or so. My wife had several major surgeries, each less than a week after diagnosis. My boss had lung surgery scheduled within a couple weeks after diagnosis. Any other questions?

You must live in a large metropolitan area. Here, we have 2 hospitals available for surgery and it takes just as long as you claim it does in Canada. You've still not given any credible sources for your information. Until you do, I would tend to disbelieve you in the face of the anecdotal evidence I've gotten from my Canadian friends regarding the health care system. Oh and by the way, we're not talking emergency surgery here. Are you telling me that someone coming into a Canadian hospital with an emergency situation wouldn't get in? My friend's father who had the stroke got right in immediately. Com'on get real here. Who are your credible sources? How about some real statistics regarding emergency surgery in Canada? PS I'd love to see what you pay for health insurance and who you have that can get all the friggin paperwork done in that short a time. I don't believe it for a minute.

[akoff 0]

The point is that the theory of "taxing the rich" really means "pretend to tax the rich, but really tax the middle class."

That is true. i hate to tell you guys this but 250k per year doesn't take you out of the middle class. it puts you in the top tax bracket, it means that most others will think you are rich, it means that you get the sh!t kicked out of you in taxes....why? Because your not rich!! When you are rich you can hide money, set up real eastate corps, pay yourself in capitol gains $'s instead if income dollars....pay 15 or 20% tax instead of 35 to 50% like the plan is....This is funny stuff trust most of you don't understand what being rich is!! I guess i don't either really but I am closing in on it and it is beginging to become clearer.there is one awnser that wiil kind of level the playing field...FLAT TAX...but nobody wants to talk about that. the reason is people can't see the forrest through the trees. Lower income brackets will scream about lowering the tax rate to help the rich but they don't understand how the money gets sheltered!!!!!Flame away!!

[akoff 0]

You must live in a large metropolitan area. Here, we have 2 hospitals available for surgery and it takes just as long as you claim it does in Canada. You've still not given any credible sources for your information. Until you do, I would tend to disbelieve you in the face of the anecdotal evidence I've gotten from my Canadian friends regarding the health care system. Oh and by the way, we're not talking emergency surgery here. Are you telling me that someone coming into a Canadian hospital with an emergency situation wouldn't get in? My friend's father who had the stroke got right in immediately. Com'on get real here. Who are your credible sources? How about some real statistics regarding emergency surgery in Canada? PS I'd love to see what you pay for health insurance and who you have that can get all the friggin paperwork done in that short a time. I don't believe it for a minute.

I really hate to say this but here on the east coast I have never heard any of the type things you have been subjected to. We have 6 or 8 hospitals within 20 miles for surgery and countless more if you go into the city. I feel for you and am very confused on the way things have been done. I have to believe that you are either not understanding something or getting shafted very bad. Either way montana maybe a pretty place but I think i'll stick to visiting.

[Johan 0]

Surgery? Well, I had my appendix out 12 hours after I showed up at the hospital. My son has had ear surgery a number of times, each scheduled within a week or so. My wife had several major surgeries, each less than a week after diagnosis. My boss had lung surgery scheduled within a couple weeks after diagnosis. Any other questions?

You are blowing everything out of proportion. If you have a critical condition, you don't have to wait. But, if it can wait, then you can wait. If they didn't remove your appendix, which I guess was infected, it would have burst and you would stand a great risk of dying.Hospitals have to evaluate how urgent you are in need of surgery, and act based on their decision. This is my father job to coordinate at his hospital. He evaluates the need for orthopedic and neurologic surgery, because this are his fields of specialization, other doctors evaluate other types of patients and my dad makes the final decision based on their reports.Where you live in a country is also a major factor, just like others have mentioned. Especially in a large country like the USA the difference between the numbers of hospitals in specific regions can be huge. If there are few hospitals, the waiting list will of course be longer. This has nothing to do with social or private health care.

[hblask 1]

You must live in a large metropolitan area. Here, we have 2 hospitals available for surgery and it takes just as long as you claim it does in Canada. You've still not given any credible sources for your information.

One of my posts above is heavlily annotated, look back and check it.

Until you do, I would tend to disbelieve you in the face of the anecdotal evidence I've gotten from my Canadian friends regarding the health care system. Oh and by the way, we're not talking emergency surgery here. Are you telling me that someone coming into a Canadian hospital with an emergency situation wouldn't get in? My friend's father who had the stroke got right in immediately. Com'on get real here. Who are your credible sources? How about some real statistics regarding emergency surgery in Canada? PS I'd love to see what you pay for health insurance and who you have that can get all the friggin paperwork done in that short a time. I don't believe it for a minute.

I pay for health insurance what it is worth to me. Canadians don't have that choice; they pay what a politician thinks it is worth. As for paperwork, I have none except signing some forms on my first visit to the doctor.If you would like to believe "a couple of friend's anecdotal evidence" over the well-documented failures of every socialist system in the world, I think that says a lot more about you than it does about the world.