rjkdb8 1 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 QUOTE (Loismustdie @ Thursday, May 7th, 2009, 9:15 AM) *Actually, it's a reflection of arrogance on your part. You do not know, therefore you assume that no one else can. This is a wonderful point.I suppose everyone who doesn't agree is blinded by pride, right? It amuses me that some xians denounce pride as a very bad thing, because pride is what I feel when I do good things in life, and yet you guys get to enjoy the alternate version where we are so inadequate relative to god and born with original sin. When i hear directives like the prohibition on pride (on my version, anyway) I wonder why I would worship god even if I could detect him. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Oh, I see what you are saying. No, I don't think my statement that no one can know about certain things is a generalization from my own not-knowing -- nor is it an "assumption". It's a deduction from what we know about knowing. (There are plenty of things I do not know about, but I'm pretty sure other people do. This is a different issue entirely)Also, it seems pretty clear to me that certainty does not correlate with correctness in humans. That should be clear to you as well, since much of the world is certain in their beliefs which contradict yours (e.g. other religions). While you are correct, that doesn't mean that everyone is wrong. Someone might be correct.You know I like you, but again, lol.It was wonderful. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 While you are correct, that doesn't mean that everyone is wrong. Someone might be correct.For sure. But lots of them have got to be wrong and also believe as strongly as you do that they are right. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 For sure. But lots of them have got to be wrong and also believe as strongly as you do that they are right.We agree. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 While you are correct, that doesn't mean that everyone is wrong.it does mean you have no way of being certain you are right and everyone else is wrong.that was the point. to claim certainty is arrogant. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 it does mean you have no way of being certain you are right and everyone else is wrong.that was the point. to claim certainty is arrogant.From the perspective of someone who doesn't know for sure, it definitely could seem arrogant. We agree. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 From the perspective of someone who doesn't know for sure, it definitely could seem arrogant. We agree.I guess the question is: Given that you know that this feeling of "knowing for sure" is unreliable (many people have it but are wrong), how could you trust it not to be wrong in you? Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Crowtrobot:it does mean you have no way of being certain you are right and everyone else is wrong.that was the point. to claim certainty is arrogant.Are you certain about this? Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 I guess the question is: Given that you know that this feeling of "knowing for sure" is unreliable (many people have it but are wrong), how could you trust it not to be wrong in you?Me personally? Or generally? Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Me personally? Or generally?Let's start with you personally. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Are you certain about this?yes, simple logic. it is a certainty that it is human nature to self-delude when it comes to faith-basedreligious belief. that goes without saying since most of them are mutually exclusive and demographicallyalmost entirely cultural. so no human has any way to be certain whether a truth derived from faith and/orsubjective internal revelation is a real truth or self-delusion. that includes you. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 yes, simple logic. it is a certainty that it is human nature to self-delude when it comes to faith-basedreligious belief.Self delude about the information from an outside source??? I guess I don't understand your version of self-delude.that goes without saying since most of them are mutually exclusive and demographicallyalmost entirely cultural.Which of course means that they must all be wrong?so no human has any way to be certain whether a truth derived from faith and/orsubjective internal revelation is a real truth or self-delusion. that includes you.Which means that this fact could very well be a delusion you have created for yourself? Since the data needed to prove this would require knowldege of everything. Even if 99.9% of all religions were wrong, one right one disproves your 'certain' conclusionsSo is it only faith based religions that can self-delude? Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Even if 99.9% of all religions were wrong, one right one disproves your 'certain' conclusionsActually it doesn't. DUCY?Crow's point was that certainty based on faith (=> no evidence) is misplaced. That the believer is correct changes nothing.Try applying the same logic to a non-religious scenario and it becomes easier. For example, if you are playing craps and you are 100% certain that the next roll of the dice will come up snake-eyes, the fact that it does has no bearing on the accuracy of your initial faith in the result. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Self delude about the information from an outside source???not sure what you mean. certainty of subjective metaphysical religious truthdoesn't come from an outside source. it comes from internal revelation andfaith by definition.Which of course means that they must all be wrong?statistically that's the most likely possibility, but that wasn't the point.Which means that this fact could very well be a delusion you have created for yourself? Since the data needed to prove this would require knowldege of everything.no. the data needed is that humans are prone to self-delusion about religious belief (which you necessarily must agree with) and that the certainty of your religious truth does not come from objective evidence, which is true by definition. i'm not claiming anything thatisn't obvious.if you want you can argue that nobody can be certain of anything, but obviously that's not a very good way tovalidate your own certainty : )Even if 99.9% of all religions were wrong, one right one disproves your 'certain' conclusionsirrelevant. i'm not claiming to be certain they are all wrong. i'm claiming there is no sane way to be certain any one is right.So is it only faith based religions that can self-delude?faith-based certainty that anything is true is self-delusion by definition. doesn't have to be a religion. Link to post Share on other sites
rjkdb8 1 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Let's start with you personally. Link to post Share on other sites
xfrodobagginsx 0 Posted May 27, 2009 Author Share Posted May 27, 2009 Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.really? I don't think this is going to have the desired effect. Link to post Share on other sites
Piddle Duck 0 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.What do you care? Why don't you pray and worship and leave the rest of us alone. Is that so hard? And why the internet? Are you too fat or ugly to go out and public and harass people? You are precisely the type of person that turns me off about religion and this stuff. You are not doing God's work, you are do the Devil's work. SINNER! Link to post Share on other sites
xfrodobagginsx 0 Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 First of all, if you don't like this topic, don't click on it. I have only posted this in this thread only. Secondly, don't insult my beliefs. I haven't don't that to you. Third, I haven't harrassed anyone. Fourth, telling people about Jesus IS doing God's work. Read the bible for yourself. Fifth, I NEVER pointed in anyone's face and yelled SINNER!! Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,721 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 First of all, if you don't like this topic, don't click on it. I have only posted this in this thread only. Secondly, don't insult my beliefs. I haven't don't that to you. Third, I haven't harrassed anyone. Fourth, telling people about Jesus IS doing God's work. Read the bible for yourself. Fifth, I NEVER pointed in anyone's face and yelled SINNER!!There are six things you're mad about? And you're taking over? Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 First of all, if you don't like this topic, don't click on it. I have only posted this in this thread only. Secondly, don't insult my beliefs. I haven't don't that to you. Third, I haven't harrassed anyone. Fourth, telling people about Jesus IS doing God's work. Read the bible for yourself. Fifth, I NEVER pointed in anyone's face and yelled SINNER!!For those who don't know him, xfrodobagginsx is a professional religion troll, and has started this same topic on just about every message board on the internet. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&saf...mp;oq=&aqi= Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 For those who don't know him, xfrodobagginsx is a professional religion troll, and has started this same topic on just about every message board on the internet. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&saf...mp;oq=&aqi= Seriously? Where do I apply? That sounds easy. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,751 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I guess the question is: Given that you know that this feeling of "knowing for sure" is unreliable (many people have it but are wrong), how could you trust it not to be wrong in you?Because my faith isn't based on feelings alone. I believe that the Bible is true. Nothing I have ever read, including the site that you often quote, brings up one valid point where the Bible is incorrect. Secular archelogists use the Bible to locate things. Why is this? What's true and what isn't? It's all a little too perfect, don't you think? Or calendar is based on who's birth?I John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.So while I could be wrong, I have seen zero evidence to convince me that I am. The main argument of atheists everywhere, including this board, is that they don't believe it because it's crazy... and yet very few have even researched the Bible. I would bet that of all the regular atheist posters on this board that maybe only Checky has read the Bible all the way through... and I would bet against that. How can anyone make a decision without researching something thoroughly and following the evidence where it leads? Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 First of all, if you don't like this topic, don't click on it. I have only posted this in this thread only. Secondly, don't insult my beliefs. I haven't don't that to you. Third, I haven't harrassed anyone. Fourth, telling people about Jesus IS doing God's work. Read the bible for yourself. Fifth, I NEVER pointed in anyone's face and yelled SINNER!!I have a better idea, how about you go fuck yourself. I'm actually a member of this forum, not an internet spammer, and I'll sway what ever the **** I want, to whomever the **** I want, in any thread I want. And one of the things I want to do is insult your retarded believes, you psychotic, compulsive troll. You are not doing god's work. You have an illness. If we had a mod that was worth two shits you'd be banned. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I would bet that of all the regular atheist posters on this board that maybe only Checky has read the Bible all the way through..Wrong Link to post Share on other sites
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