gruven 530 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I don't think it matters too much for the leafs, given that they probably weren't nabbing a top-2 spot ahead of the isles and thrashers. it's a deep draft with plenty of talent for the bottom 10 finishers.Yeah, but the lottery teams can only move up four places. That means you have to be sixth or better to have a shot at Hedman or Tavares. Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Yeah, but the lottery teams can only move up four places. That means you have to be sixth or better to have a shot at Hedman or Tavares.as far as I'm concerned, the leafs are doing fine unless they start trading kids for vets in the next 3-4 years. if they inexplicably win with crappy teams, more power to them. intentionally tanking is such a terrible thing to do to a fan base. see: st. louis post-lockout. Link to post Share on other sites
pezeveng 207 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 its fun for one night but the big picture is more important I have my robbery route I mean parade route planned out for 15 years now. Soon I will be too old and fat to run down this planned route. Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 as far as I'm concerned, the leafs are doing fine unless they start trading kids for vets in the next 3-4 years. if they inexplicably win with crappy teams, more power to them. intentionally tanking is such a terrible thing to do to a fan base. see: st. louis post-lockout.Don't misunderstand: the players are in NO way tanking. But the management and coaching staff are being painfully obvious about their attempts to ice the worst team possible. Juri Tlusty scores five goals in a game for the Marlies, they call up Boyd Deveraux. Justin Pogge is playing average hockey, winning some games, losing some, they switch to Joseph. They get to a shootout, they ignore their top scorers for rookies and players who haven't been good in the shootout at all. Four on four overtime, they have their fourth line players on the ice.... The players are just playing really hard and really well..... Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Don't misunderstand: the players are in NO way tanking. But the management and coaching staff are being painfully obvious about their attempts to ice the worst team possible. Juri Tlusty scores five goals in a game for the Marlies, they call up Boyd Deveraux. Justin Pogge is playing average hockey, winning some games, losing some, they switch to Joseph. They get to a shootout, they ignore their top scorers for rookies and players who haven't been good in the shootout at all. Four on four overtime, they have their fourth line players on the ice....The players are just playing really hard and really well.....With the talent the Leafs have put on the ice they have had a very good year. Its very ironic that they havent had trouble scoring goals and if they had any sort of goaltending in the beginning of the year they would be comfortably in a playoff spot right now...Far fetched for some but I dont think it is....Toskala's GAA is .6 goals higher than his career average. Yes a lot of that isnt his fault but if we had goaltending that won us some games , especially in shootouts and OT we would be much higher in the standings.Guys who have been criticized for their salaries like Blake and Kubina have to be given major credit for having good years. Jason Blake has shown that he is the ultimate professional, took his lumps after he was scratched and now is having a very good year. He didnt use his cancer as an excuse one time last year and this year is close to the player the Leafs spent the money signing him. If he finishes strong he will score 30 goals and 65pts which is a pretty good year.I still dont understand the theory behind BLOWING up the team....Why must we trade Antropov? Lets say we get a 1st round pick from a team like Boston, are we going to be able to draft a player like him?Even if we do how many years is it going to take for that player to develop into a 25-30 goal scorer that Antropov is. Same goes for Kaberle. He is still an elite puck moving all star defenceman. We trade him for a 1st round pick, how are we going to replace him???Same goes for Kubina...The team needs retooling. They need two first line players, which can be obtained in the off season with the salary cap that they have. They need to play better defensively, which they will when guys like Schenn,Frogren and White grow together as a team. I would definetely add another tough big dman to the roster if we can.We need to obviously draft better and we will...The notion of losing to get a high draft pick isnt a viable option as I have been saying all year long.Most importantly the core of the team needs to learn how to win together. We have a very good coach that is very capable.Please Brian just look at what you have, dont listen to the masses and do the conventional thing that is BLOW up the team....We have some good players, make some good trades, sign some good quality young free agents and draft well...Drafting well doesnt mean pull a Pittsburgh and Ottawa and draft in the top 3 overall..Drafting well means do it like Detroit and draft well in the later rounds.Thats all for now. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 We anxiously await what tomorrow will bring...Burke said something that was VERY interesting yesterday that will fuel the Toronto hatred among fans and non fans.I am paraphrasing" If I can add a player that will assure us of a playoff spot this year i will, however it must still be with the overall long term plan of the franchise"Interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
LJB723 0 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 We anxiously await what tomorrow will bring...Burke said something that was VERY interesting yesterday that will fuel the Toronto hatred among fans and non fans.I am paraphrasing" If I can add a player that will assure us of a playoff spot this year i will, however it must still be with the overall long term plan of the franchise"Interesting.So he's acquired a time machine and Gretzky '85/86? Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 So he's acquired a time machine and Gretzky '85/86?He basically meant that , unlike what others think, he would be actually welcome a playoff spot...But he obviously isnt going to trade draft picks to acquire rent a players. Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 He basically meant that , unlike what others think, he would be actually welcome a playoff spot...But he obviously isnt going to trade draft picks to acquire rent a players.he needs to just build from within. toronto could build an amazing team with the resources they have. it's totally beyond me why they don't just spend infinite dollars on scouting and build a farm system. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 he needs to just build from within. toronto could build an amazing team with the resources they have. it's totally beyond me why they don't just spend infinite dollars on scouting and build a farm system.they are in the process of doing that...Getting Burke and Nonis was a huge start..Half the people in Toronto dont get how things work...They need to understand that we arent going to get Tavares or Hedman..We will get a good player probably top 10...But great teams arent build with only top picks...Unless you are the Penguins who had 75 top 1st round picks in a row ***. I am glad that it looks like Kaberle wont be traded just yet, if at all..I dont get the thinking behind trading Kaberle for a 1st round pick and a player. That first round pick wont be in the top 15 most likely . Replacing Kaberle will be very difficult. Antoropov,Moore who are free agents are the types of players we can trade.***number exaggerated to make a point Link to post Share on other sites
nell789 0 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 they are in the process of doing that...Getting Burke and Nonis was a huge start..Half the people in Toronto dont get how things work...They need to understand that we arent going to get Tavares or Hedman..We will get a good player probably top 10...But great teams arent build with only top picks...Unless you are the Penguins who had 75 top 1st round picks in a row ***. I am glad that it looks like Kaberle wont be traded just yet, if at all..I dont get the thinking behind trading Kaberle for a 1st round pick and a player. That first round pick wont be in the top 15 most likely . Replacing Kaberle will be very difficult. Antoropov,Moore who are free agents are the types of players we can trade.***number exaggerated to make a pointAnd they're still only a playoff bubble team... Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 they are in the process of doing that...Getting Burke and Nonis was a huge start..Half the people in Toronto dont get how things work...They need to understand that we arent going to get Tavares or Hedman..We will get a good player probably top 10...But great teams arent build with only top picks...Unless you are the Penguins who had 75 top 1st round picks in a row ***. I am glad that it looks like Kaberle wont be traded just yet, if at all..I dont get the thinking behind trading Kaberle for a 1st round pick and a player. That first round pick wont be in the top 15 most likely . Replacing Kaberle will be very difficult. Antoropov,Moore who are free agents are the types of players we can trade.***number exaggerated to make a pointI genuinely believe a top 10 pick this year will be as good as most other years' top 3.the leafs need to get value for as many guys as they can this year. I see nothing wrong with making moves to tank as a GM... just don't ice retarded shootout lineups and play the wrong goalie intentionally.here's hoping moore doesn't magically stop scoring once he's yet again demoted to the third line on his new team. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I dont get the thinking behind trading Kaberle for a 1st round pick and a player. That first round pick wont be in the top 15 most likely . Replacing Kaberle will be very difficult. Antoropov,Moore who are free agents are the types of players we can trade.who would you rather have right now? Jeff Carter and a first round pick, or Kaberle? To me, thats a no brainer, especially for a team thats looking to compete for a Stanley Cup in about 3-5 years. Too late to get Carter, so find the next young star to be who's slumping and go get him.Is this team a player or two away from playoffs? Maybe. Are they a player or two away from a Cup contender status? no chance.thats why you rebuild. I don't want another Leaf team that barely makes the playoffs. Be a Detroit/San Jose type A contender, or don't bother.I dont know why you love the Blake's and Moore's and Antropov's so much, but so be it. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 And they're still only a playoff bubble team...Dont forget the other team that had 75 top 1st round picks...Its in Ontario...And its not Toronto... They are arguably in worse shape than the Leafs... Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 who would you rather have right now? Jeff Carter and a first round pick, or Kaberle? To me, thats a no brainer, especially for a team thats looking to compete for a Stanley Cup in about 3-5 years. Too late to get Carter, so find the next young star to be who's slumping and go get him.Is this team a player or two away from playoffs? Maybe. Are they a player or two away from a Cup contender status? no chance.thats why you rebuild. I don't want another Leaf team that barely makes the playoffs. Be a Detroit/San Jose type A contender, or don't bother.I dont know why you love the Blake's and Moore's and Antropov's so much, but so be it.good points and I will respectfully counter:I said I was in agreement in trading Antropov,Moore and Blake to a lesser extent..The Kaberle for Carter and a first round pick is no longer an option..If we can get a 40 goal scorer for Kaberle..Sure I do it..But I dont think we will...There are 30 teams in the NHL and how many of them are Detroit/San Jose Type A contenders???Maybe 3...Detroit competes every year because of astute late round drafting and good solid free agent signings.The team has been running about $6 to $7 million under the cap for most of the year...Would the team be a Cup Contender with a Gaborik,Kovalchuk or Hossa??Possibly.Will the team be a cup contender with Kovalchuk , Bouwmeester and Pronger??Possibly..Because its a very good possibility that we can have those types of players here next year..Not necessarily those that are mentioned, but those types of players...You go and trade Kaberle ,Kubina,Blake,Antropov,Toskala, Moore,Pony..For draft picks like you suggest..Who will play for the team next year??Jiri Tlusty and Grabovski on your first line???You also wont get the high priced free agents if your team has no sense of a resemblance of a team...Just my opinion..I think Burke is sharing the same sentiment...Trading all stars for mid to late 1st round picks is bad business IMO.. Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 You go and trade Kaberle ,Kubina,Blake,Antropov,Toskala, Moore,Pony..For draft picks like you suggest..Who will play for the team next year??Jiri Tlusty and Grabovski on your first line???You also wont get the high priced free agents if your team has no sense of a resemblance of a team...Just my opinion..I think Burke is sharing the same sentiment...Trading all stars for mid to late 1st round picks is bad business IMO..I don't think blake can be moved. maybe, but I really doubt it.people will go watch the leafs even if they ice something horrid. I am sure they can land a few people in the offseason. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 respect your views, but feel the need to counter: The Kaberle for Carter and a first round pick is no longer an option..If we can get a 40 goal scorer for Kaberle..Sure I do it..But I dont think we will... no, you cant get Carter now. That shipped sailed. But like I said, find the guy you believe in who might be the next 40goal scorer, and get him. No one trades a 40goal scorer for Kaberle, they trade potential. Trade Kaberle when his value is highest. Now. If you dont get a good offer, fine, then keep him. But you gotta try.examples of players id shoot for: Kessel, Lucic, Stafford, Voracek, AKostitsyn, Lupul/Van Riemsdyk, Fehr, Fleishmann. (tried to pick names from teams maybe talking to the Leafs)get them to throw in a first rounder and a decent mid level prospect, and there's your deal.You go and trade Kaberle ,Kubina,Blake,Antropov,Toskala, Moore,Pony..For draft picks like you suggest..Who will play for the team next year??Jiri Tlusty and Grabovski on your first line???You also wont get the high priced free agents if your team has no sense of a resemblance of a team...Just my opinion..I think Burke is sharing the same sentiment...Trading all stars for mid to late 1st round picks is bad business IMO..Serge, again, from this list, I see hardly anyone of top line calibre, so who cares if they are gone. You do realize your top line centre right now is Dominic Moore? Why is Tlusty that much worse than him! Why cant you accept that next year or two can be rebuilding too? Why do you have to compete next year?Wait til a summer of free agency when teams will be REALLY tight with a lower cap (say 2010/11) and then get your guys....Trading all stars for mid to late 1st round picks is bad business IMO..They have only 1 all-star. Kaberle. And I dont think anyone is suggesting he be traded for a low pick, least of all me. Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Serge, again, from this list, I see hardly anyone of top line calibre, so who cares if they are gone. You do realize your top line centre right now is Dominic Moore? Why is Tlusty that much worse than him! Why cant you accept that next year or two can be rebuilding too? Why do you have to compete next year?Wait til a summer of free agency when teams will be REALLY tight with a lower cap (say 2010/11) and then get your guys.I had something to this effect in my post and deleted it. well said. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 I like your points and you articulate them well..I dont particularly disagree...The forwards can be replaced..My MAIN argument is Kaberle and Kubina..Kubina is having a great year and Kaberle is an All star..I can wait two years, but if we trade everyone for draft picks..We have to wait 5 years...which wont cut it...My argument is how you will REPLACE Kaberle and Kubina...If for example Kaberle goes to Boston for a first round pick , which will be in the 25-30 range, is that gonna replace him..But I am not disagreeing with most of your other points..GO LEAFS GO Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I like your points and you articulate them well..I dont particularly disagree...The forwards can be replaced..My MAIN argument is Kaberle and Kubina..Kubina is having a great year and Kaberle is an All star..I can wait two years, but if we trade everyone for draft picks..We have to wait 5 years...which wont cut it...My argument is how you will REPLACE Kaberle and Kubina...If for example Kaberle goes to Boston for a first round pick , which will be in the 25-30 range, is that gonna replace him..But I am not disagreeing with most of your other points..GO LEAFS GOthe blues basically had tkachuk, weight, and a bunch of guys who weren't NHL ready in 05-06. by 07-08 they had a legitimately exciting team back together. the leafs are totally capable of imitating that plan if they play their cards right with FAs and shrewd drafting. it won't be as painful as you think, especially with their cornerstone defenseman locked in with schenn. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 My argument is how you will REPLACE Kaberle and Kubina...If for example Kaberle goes to Boston for a first round pick , which will be in the 25-30 range, is that gonna replace him..I like the tone of this discussion, so I'll keep trying! Kubina only has 1 more year left on his deal. You don't need to replace him next year (give a youngster the ice time or sign some retread to fill the time) and you might as well get something now while he still has some time on his deal. This time next year, if your still trying to move him, your best bet will be a mid draft pick, fairly suspect. Move him now, get a decent prospect who you HOPE is a block of your future. The more high level assets you have, the better the chance you walk away with a top player. Kubina will not be a block of your future winning team, move him now i say.Kaberle is the tough one. He has 2 more years, at a reasonable salary. And he is 30years old. Are you trying to compete in 2yrs? If so, then yeah, keep him. But id rather shoot for top contender status in 3-5years and therefore, Id move him now when a team can really use a player like him, at such a good salary, for 2 more years. But again, only if I got such a good deal with a somewhat proven prospect, ie Kessel.And if he loves it here so much, and you love him so much, throw some money at him when he becomes a UFA in the summer of 2011 if its all that important. Or find a better alternative maybe? Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 I like the tone of this discussion, so I'll keep trying! Kubina only has 1 more year left on his deal. You don't need to replace him next year (give a youngster the ice time or sign some retread to fill the time) and you might as well get something now while he still has some time on his deal. This time next year, if your still trying to move him, your best bet will be a mid draft pick, fairly suspect. Move him now, get a decent prospect who you HOPE is a block of your future. The more high level assets you have, the better the chance you walk away with a top player. Kubina will not be a block of your future winning team, move him now i say.Kaberle is the tough one. He has 2 more years, at a reasonable salary. And he is 30years old. Are you trying to compete in 2yrs? If so, then yeah, keep him. But id rather shoot for top contender status in 3-5years and therefore, Id move him now when a team can really use a player like him, at such a good salary, for 2 more years. But again, only if I got such a good deal with a somewhat proven prospect, ie Kessel.And if he loves it here so much, and you love him so much, throw some money at him when he becomes a UFA in the summer of 2011 if its all that important. Or find a better alternative maybe?I am good with your scenario now...Now if you can land Kessel or Lucic AND a 1st round pick then my all means pull the trigger. Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I am good with your scenario now...Now if you can land Kessel or Lucic AND a 1st round pick then my all means pull the trigger.I cannot for the life of me understand why boston wants to trade kessel. if they do, the leafs would be really dumb not to be all over that.is lucic actually being mentioned, too? that would be sick... Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I cannot for the life of me understand why boston wants to trade kessel. if they do, the leafs would be really dumb not to be all over that.is lucic actually being mentioned, too? that would be sick...I dont get it either, and I gotta believe its all a false rumour, but if I was the Leafs, I wouldnt hesitate at all to do any sembleance of the following:Kaberle for Kessel straight upKaberle for Lucic+1st rounderKaberle for Stuart+Colbourne+1st rounderif Pronger can get you Kessel and more, I gotta believe Kaberle should get you Kessel. Hell, throw in a Kubina or Antropov if it gets you Kessel.And Id love to see:Antropov+Kaberle for Voracek Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I dont get it either, and I gotta believe its all a false rumour, but if I was the Leafs, I wouldnt hesitate at all to do any sembleance of the following:Kaberle for Kessel straight upKaberle for Lucic+1st rounderKaberle for Stuart+Colbourne+1st rounderif Pronger can get you Kessel and more, I gotta believe Kaberle should get you Kessel. Hell, throw in a Kubina or Antropov if it gets you Kessel.And Id love to see:Antropov+Kaberle for VoracekThere is no deal with Boston. Link to post Share on other sites
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