Tpwk Until The River

[rdtedm 0]

I'm posting this for a guy in the gen poker forum, see what you guys think. He posts his reasoning which isnt very out of line pf, but we'll see what we hear here.

He seemed like a good agressive player. But when i had my decision on the river, i did not know what to think? what do you do? we haven't been playing much...we've played like 20 hands and the game has been pretty LAG. I thought I was best on the river and was trying to make a thin value bet but wasn't expecting a raise... Before I get the 'i don't like the call of your 3bet preflop'...i put him on a low PP or AK type hand and was going to make a play on middle carded board...He's been 3 betting lots but this was his largest 3 bet. also, i don't always call these 3bets as well.. It's a rare occurence unless i have a reason to believe i can outplay the dude afterwards PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownHero ($222.50)BB ($278.50)Preflop: Hero is Button with 9 , T . Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $26, Hero calls $20.Flop: ($52) 6 , T , 5 (2 players)BB bets $33, Hero calls $33.Turn: ($118) 7 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.River: ($118) Q (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $80, BB pushes all in ($219.50)

[rdtedm 0]

-Flop is fine, but if the turn blanks and he checks to us, we have to bet.-If we check the turn, we definitely have to check the river when an actual scare card hits.-Looks like AQ trying to TID pf, and continuation betting the flop, giving up the turn, waking up on river.

[wsox8 10]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownHero ($222.50)BB ($278.50)Preflop: Hero is Button with 9 , T . Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $26, Hero calls $20.Flop: ($52) 6 , T , 5 (2 players)BB bets $33, Hero calls $33.Turn: ($118) 7 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.River: ($118) Q (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $80, BB pushes all in

[Acid_Knight 2]

I don't really like anything about this hand.The preflop 3-bet seems unusually large and regardless of the fact that you think you know where he's at, with a hand as weak as yours, I think giving up preflop is the best play.On the flop, calling isn't terrible. Raising usually commits us to the pot, which I guess we don't wanna do at this point, but that all depends on how aggressively you've been playing.On the turn, WHY ARE YOU NOT BETTING? You think he's going for a CRAI? I don't get it. You had this plan to "play the middle" and the board is all middle and you're checking with what is usually the best hand?Ok, so we didn't bet the turn and the river is one of the cards we don't really wanna see. Why are you betting now? What do you think he has that will call the bet?It really seems that you were lost in this hand.1. Fold preflop2. Calling the flop is ok.3. BET THE TURN4. CHECK the river

[Acid_Knight 2]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownHero ($222.50)BB ($278.50)Preflop: Hero is Button with 9 , T . Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $26, Hero calls $20.Flop: ($52) 6 , T , 5 (2 players)BB bets $33, Hero calls $33.Turn: ($118) 7 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.River: ($118) Q (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $80, BB pushes all in

Zach shall give you a gold star!

[VernonME 0]

Basically what acid said.Preflop is a fold, but since you had a read on him, you went with it.Flop call seems like the right move.Turn, I would make a pot sized bet right there and take it downRiver, should be a check, but after he shoves..?Would anyone call this all in bet? Basically a min raise of $83.5 more

[Jordan 1]

acid basically said what i said in the orginal thread, which is the challenge thread in strat.basically flop is fine..i def bet the turn..but as played you gotta check behind on the riv...really no value in betting it in my mind...esp for 80$and i personally fold pf, aren't really deep enough to play the hand in my opinion.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour 0]

ya, I dont hate the hand preflop and flop.but why bet the river?

[No_Neck 0]

ya, I dont hate the hand preflop and flop.but why bet the river?

I agree with the check on the river, or a bet on the turn.

[GabeTheKid 0]

I see there's a consencus that a bet on the turn is best...I agree with you...I really don't like the way i played the hand...And the reason I bet on the river is trying to represent some sort of a bluff...w/e he would want to put me on....I really didn't expect to get raised...I just thought i had the best hand and hoped he'd find an excuse to call...I like making thin value bets when i think i'm aheadHow much do we bet on the turn...what do we do if we're raised...let's say i bet 50-80 on the turn and get c/r all in...what then?Gabe

[NoBBiR 0]

Betting the river is like shooting yourself in the face.

[GabeTheKid 0]

Betting the river is like shooting yourself in the face.

what's wrong with shooting yourself in the face once in a while to mix it up?

[nomad_monad 0]

And the reason I bet on the river is trying to represent some sort of a bluff...w/e he would want to put me on....I really didn't expect to get raised...I just thought i had the best hand and hoped he'd find an excuse to call...I like making thin value bets when i think i'm ahead

what exactly did you think you were ahead of? he 3-bets, bets flop, checks turn. what hand would he 3-bet with pf, that you beat by the river, that he would call the river with even if he did think there was a good chance you were bluffing? unless this really is HU (not sure if this is the original HH or if it was just modified by zach), maybe 99, but that's about it (and the chances of that are less because you hold a 9).

How much do we bet on the turn...what do we do if we're raised...let's say i bet 50-80 on the turn and get c/r all in...what then?

you'd be committed - you'd have to call. this isn't really a big worry though - he's not c/r'ing this turn unless he 3-bet you pf w/89, or with Tx/gapper that picked up a combo draw with the 6h on the turn. sure it's possible but those hands are going to make up a pretty small % of most people's pf 3-betting range (unless this is HU). if you were afraid of getting c/r'ed on the turn, your river bet makes even less sense.

[GabeTheKid 0]

what exactly did you think you were ahead of? he 3-bets, bets flop, checks turn. what hand would he 3-bet with pf, that you beat by the river, that he would call the river with even if he did think there was a good chance you were bluffing? unless this really is HU (not sure if this is the original HH or if it was just modified by zach), maybe 99, but that's about it (and the chances of that are less because you hold a 9). you'd be committed - you'd have to call. this isn't really a big worry though - he's not c/r'ing this turn unless he 3-bet you pf w/89, or with Tx/gapper that picked up a combo draw with the 6h on the turn. sure it's possible but those hands are going to make up a pretty small % of most people's pf 3-betting range (unless this is HU). if you were afraid of getting c/r'ed on the turn, your river bet makes even less sense.

i disagree with a bunch of your points..first of all i don't understand what 'unless this is really HU' means...now, i did check the turn because i had no clue what to do if i was raised all in on the turn (i'd probably fold...I'd be drawing to 7-10 outs and would be about a 4-1 dog...when i checked the turn, i realized that my hand is also under-represented....and was hoping he'd want to make a hero call since after he checks turn and river it's REALLY hard to put him on a hand that beats me.Gabe

[nomad_monad 0]

i disagree with a bunch of your points..first of all i don't understand what 'unless this is really HU' means...

unless this is "heads-up." if it is, i still think the river bet is still value betting too thin, but if it was 6 max it would be spew plain and simple.because the original hand was modified by converter after you posted it, i'm not sure if this was really a heads-up hand or if it just looks like that because you only included you & villain in the original post.

now, i did check the turn because i had no clue what to do if i was raised all in on the turn (i'd probably fold...I'd be drawing to 7-10 outs and would be about a 4-1 dog...

yes but you'd have more than 50% of your stack in there if you bet the turn any reasonable amount. you're committed. odds really cease to matter unless your opponent flips up his cards and you know exactly what your odds are.your logic isn't consistent btw. if you checked the turn because you'd have no clue what to do if check raised, why are you betting the river if you have no clue what to do if you get check-raised there? it's not enough to say that you thought you were ahead - when you value bet thin you have to think ahead to what you'd do if you get raised exactly because you're increasing the risk of a tough decision.

when i checked the turn, i realized that my hand is also under-represented....and was hoping he'd want to make a hero call since after he checks turn and river it's REALLY hard to put him on a hand that beats me.

sure your hand is underepped but not by much. after you check behind on the turn it's value is as a bluff catcher and not much more.yeah - it's REALLY hard to put him on a hand that beats you. ergo, it's REALLY hard to put him on a hand that's willing to call and lose to your (no longer) TP no kicker on this board. the hand range that he calls with that loses, if it exists at all, is way narrower than the hand range that calls/raises and beats you here because it elected to slowplay, play pot control, or improved on the river.

[GabeTheKid 0]

it is HU.I doesn't matter how much of my stack i have in. You have to look at the pot odds in that situation and i don't think they would justify a call..I thought there was a good chance I'd see a c/r all in on the turn.On the river, i thought it'd be much less likely as i've really almost never saw that line taken...that's why i dind't know what to think...

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'm posting this for a guy in the gen poker forum, see what you guys think. He posts his reasoning which isnt very out of line pf, but we'll see what we hear here.

I would have checked behind on the river for sure. There's nothing you can beat that's going to add value to this pot, and there's nothing that's strong enough to call.

[nomad_monad 0]

I doesn't matter how much of my stack i have in. You have to look at the pot odds in that situation and i don't think they would justify a call..

so you don't believe in pot commitment. well, you wouldn't be the first, although it's a distinctly minority position in these parts.

I thought there was a good chance I'd see a c/r all in on the turn.

you keep saying that but i'm not seeing a hand range from you that leads you to that. what hand range would 3bet preflop and then check the turn? i'm not asking because i don't know but rather to see what you think. if you think he'd do that solely because of the board texture, that's even a greater argument for why you'd have to stack off on the turn because of pot commitment.