The Tree Of Knowledge

[donk4life 34]

I've been reading the book of Genesis quite a bit lately, mainly because I want to increase my knowledge of religion... I'm not a religious person, but I still find religion fascinating..And this question came up while I was reading it..God did not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge... and there in lies the question.... why?Did God want Adam and Eve to remain ignorant throughout their whole existence? Perhaps ignorance is the wrong word, but did they even know about sex until after they were kicked out of the Garden? It says in the Bible that after they were tempted by the serpent they became aware of their nakedness..Of course different religions have different interpretations of what the Tree of Knowledge actually symbolized... and maybe I'm looking at this through the entirely wrong perspective..

[fckthis 0]

I've been reading the book of Genesis quite a bit lately, mainly because I want to increase my knowledge of religion... I'm not a religious person, but I still find religion fascinating..And this question came up while I was reading it..God did not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge... and there in lies the question.... why?Did God want Adam and Eve to remain ignorant throughout their whole existence? Perhaps ignorance is the wrong word, but did they even know about sex until after they were kicked out of the Garden? It says in the Bible that after they were tempted by the serpent they became aware of their nakedness..Of course different religions have different interpretations of what the Tree of Knowledge actually symbolized... and maybe I'm looking at this through the entirely wrong perspective..

Logically looking at it, it seems that God knew (as he is all knowing after all) that Eve would take the apple. He also allowed the existence of the serpent in the garden, so it seems like one big elaborate setup to doom mankind. Nice guy this god character is.

[Vick07 0]

Free will.. I think it makes some sense to look at it this way; God could have made us to be robotic... we would be forced to follow him (or not eat of the tree) and would be close to him. But if we were given the choice to follow him or not follow him, and if a fork in the road presents itself, and we are given the choice, "Follow me or don't follow me," if we were to choose to not (as we all have) then we would be doomed, yes, but if we did, we would be closer to him than we could imagine because we were able to follow him when given the choice to or not. God knew Eve would take it.. but he didn't make her. Adam and Eve each made up their own minds to take the apple.. but if they had chosen not to they would've been so much closer to God...It's like who are you going to be closer to: Your dog, that follows you because you feed it... or that friend that sticks with you through the hard times even though they aren't getting anything in return? C.S. Lewis explained it much better than I can in Chapter 8 of Mere Christianity.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Christians, then, believe that an evil power has made himself for the present the Prince of this World. And, of course, that raises problems. Is this state of affairs in accordance with God's will, or not? If it is, He is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power?But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, 'I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on. your, own.' Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. . You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will has made it possible.It is probably the same in the universe. God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata--of creatures that worked like machines--would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will--that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings--then we may take it it is worth paying.When we have understood about free will, we shall see how silly it is to ask, as somebody once asked me: 'Why did God make a creature of such rotten stuff that it went wrong?' The better stuff a creature is made of the cleverer and stronger and freer it is--then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse it will be if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best--or worst--of all."---------------------------------------------------------That makes sense to me..... that book probably has some answers that can (at least attempt to) answer some of your other questions... you can find it heremere christianity by c.s. lewis

[SilentSnow 1]

I dont know if I remember it right, but here is the Mormon explanation-God actually did want them to eat from the tree. His "commandment" was actually a warning that if they ate from the tree they would suffer death and pain.But the real commandment he gave them was to multiply and replenish the earth. The only way to do this was to eat from the tree.He didnt make them though. They had a choice between living forever in the garden of eden, or eating the fruit and becoming mortal and having to suffer, but also being able to have children.Of course they made the right choice by eating it. Also, they didnt do it because Satan tricked them, but because they realized it was the better option. Satan's influence was coincidental.I cant remember why exactly Satan wanted them to eat the fruit, but somehow he mistakenly believed God didnt want them to.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I dont know if I remember it right, but here is the Mormon explanation-God actually did want them to eat from the tree. His "commandment" was actually a warning that if they ate from the tree they would suffer death and pain.But the real commandment he gave them was to multiply and replenish the earth. The only way to do this was to eat from the tree.He didnt make them though. They had a choice between living forever in the garden of eden, or eating the fruit and becoming mortal and having to suffer, but also being able to have children.Of course they made the right choice by eating it. Also, they didnt do it because Satan tricked them, but because they realized it was the better option. Satan's influence was coincidental.I cant remember why exactly Satan wanted them to eat the fruit, but somehow he mistakenly believed God didnt want them to.

I indulged some Mormon missionaries and went with them to church one Sunday out of curiosity for the differences in belief. I was pretty boggled to hear this telling of the story in their Sunday School. "God said not to do it...but it was good that we disobeyed him."

[KramitDaToad 0]

Logically looking at it, it seems that God knew (as he is all knowing after all) that Eve would take the apple. He also allowed the existence of the serpent in the garden, so it seems like one big elaborate setup to doom mankind. Nice guy this god character is.

I know. I mean just putting the tree there in the first place is effectively testing Adam & Eve. He could've put it or them anywhere he wanted.Last time I checked you don't love those that you test.Can you imagine God planting the tree? Thinking to himself 'Hmmm I wonder whats going to happen when Adam & Eve see this? Let me just look into the future.... Whoops! Oh well, they have free will so it's up to them. Except that I've already seen that they do it, so there is no choice in the matter. They will do it. Hmmm free will with a predefined future. Now that's a sticky one isn't it?''Ok so lets look a bit further.... Hmmm seems that if I plant this tree countless souls yet to exist will spend eternity in pain and misery. Oh well at least they have free will and can choose not to. Oh shit, did it again! I've already seen them burning in hell and I'm omnipotent. Guess they don't have a choice after all. It will suck to be them I suppose''Ah this is all to hard, I think I'll just plant the tree and deal with the rest later.'

[davezz5 0]

The Adam and Eve tale is probably allegorical. It explains why mankind differs from other species and tries to give the ability of abstract thought a mystical root. Nevertheless, although i do not believe in god from a Christian perspective, I am open to the concept of a "first cause".

[David_Nicoson 1]

Discuss:Eve had no way of knowing that eating the apple was wrong.

[renaedawn 1]

Discuss:Eve had no way of knowing that eating the apple was wrong.

Except that weren't she and Adam both told by God not to do it? So, whether it's "wrong" or not by any modern definition, it was wrong by Garden of Eden rules.Side note - I wish I could memorize Kramit's post. That one is spot on.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Except that weren't she and Adam both told by God not to do it? So, whether it's "wrong" or not by any modern definition, it was wrong by Garden of Eden rules.

What if God gave Adam & Eve the law including the Ten Commandments, but they never ate the fruit? How would things be different?

[Loismustdie 0]

Except that weren't she and Adam both told by God not to do it? So, whether it's "wrong" or not by any modern definition, it was wrong by Garden of Eden rules.Side note - I wish I could memorize Kramit's post. That one is spot on.

It absolutely is not. Kramit manages to make his a choice anybodies fault but ones own based solely on the fact that we have a choice, which is just stupid and mundane at best. Some of you are being so less than insightful I am surprised.... Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They could have populated the earth and never have partaken of the tree. Sex isn't evil!! Nakedness isn't evil!! Neither of those is evil in and of itself until our minds "go there" so to speak. All that tree harbored was the ability to go there.... you could hypothesize that if they hadn't partaken we would be able to do anything guiltless because the knowledge of our actions would be beyond us, and God hold would not hold you accountable for what you don't have the ability to know. Satan knew exactly what he was doing... in that all he had to do was say the opposite of what God said,and the people would come a running. If God made a mistake, it was that...humans as a whole are incredibly weakminded.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Kramit manages to make his a choice anybodies fault but ones own based solely on the fact that we have a choice, which is just stupid and mundane at best.

Let me ask you this then. Before you ever existed God knew your final fate. He knows now whether you are going to Heaven or Hell. Let's assume it is the latter. He knows already that you are going to Hell.What can you possibly do to change this fact? What choices can you make to reverse your fate?

[Vick07 0]

Let me ask you this then. Before you ever existed God knew your final fate. He knows now whether you are going to Heaven or Hell. Let's assume it is the latter. He knows already that you are going to Hell.What can you possibly do to change this fact? What choices can you make to reverse your fate?

He doesn't say "So and so ends up like this, so and so ends up like that." He says make a choice, it's my way or the highway, and they choose. God knows because he knows what your final decision will be, whether or not you will accept His gift... For those that are not given a choice it isn't clear.. and I have no idea... but I don't worry about it because it's not my responsibility to decide anyway.

[KramitDaToad 0]

He doesn't say "So and so ends up like this, so and so ends up like that." He says make a choice, it's my way or the highway, and they choose. God knows because he knows what your final decision will be, whether or not you will accept His gift... For those that are not given a choice it isn't clear.. and I have no idea... but I don't worry about it because it's not my responsibility to decide anyway.

That wasn't relevant to my question.I asked if it is your fate to go to Hell what can you do you change that? If it is known before you exist, what choice can you make to affect the outcome?

[renaedawn 1]

What if God gave Adam & Eve the law including the Ten Commandments, but they never ate the fruit? How would things be different?

I'm not sure where you're going here, Dave, so I may be completely missing not only the infield but the entire ballpark. Forgive me if I am. And if I am, remember you know I'm not really stupid. ;)How would things be different in this modern life if all descendants of Adam and Eve through all millennium had lived by the 10 commandments but never been introduced to the idea of "sin"? Hmmmm. Great question. I'm actually not sure anything changes at all. Isn't it the nature of humans (free will and all that) to eventually have some person or group of persons question why and rebel? Eventually someone's still getting killed. Someone's neighbor is getting coveted. Someone's committing adultery. Even without tasting of the fruit. It is our nature. It was our nature before being cast out, else Eve wouldn't have done it.

[Vick07 0]

I think the 10 Commandments weren't made for us to follow... though obviously we are to follow them. I think they were made to show us how no matter how hard we try, we cannot.. Romans 3:19-2019Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20***Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.***The 10 Commandments were made so that we would become (As did Adam and Eve) conscious of our sin and of how we had fallen short of God. Maybe taking the tree, they realized they had disobeyed God, thus becoming conscious of His law and how they had broken it. That made them become conscious of their sin.

[Loismustdie 0]

That wasn't relevant to my question.I asked if it is your fate to go to Hell what can you do you change that? If it is known before you exist, what choice can you make to affect the outcome?

It's true, God knows all... so, what is all? Everything in life has multiple possible endings, and the ONLY... literally the ONLY person that can make choices for you is you. That's your answer, and it's an easy one because YOU don't know your own fate therefore YOU and only YOU have the ability to make the choices that can change or maintain whatever course it is that you are on. Also, I don't believe in predestination one bit... I think that God knows and sees all but that is binded by the idea that circumstance and available choice are constantly interacting with time to alter, or create, the future. So, God knows and sees all but what is all exactly? Concrete set in stone endings or all thousands of possible endings? Literally speaking, your fate could change day to day depending on the path you choose today, and God could still make the claim that he saw and knew because he DID see and know all possibilities that were available... again, millions of things happen everyday to come together and intertwine to document life and all of those are moving.. meaning, the future is a liquid, not a solid.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm not sure where you're going here, Dave, so I may be completely missing not only the infield but the entire ballpark. Forgive me if I am. And if I am, remember you know I'm not really stupid. ;)How would things be different in this modern life if all descendants of Adam and Eve through all millennium had lived by the 10 commandments but never been introduced to the idea of "sin"? Hmmmm. Great question. I'm actually not sure anything changes at all. Isn't it the nature of humans (free will and all that) to eventually have some person or group of persons question why and rebel? Eventually someone's still getting killed. Someone's neighbor is getting coveted. Someone's committing adultery. Even without tasting of the fruit. It is our nature. It was our nature before being cast out, else Eve wouldn't have done it.

The Ten Commandments would not have been neccesary, not because sin would not occur but because it wouldn't be recognized as such... remember, tree of KNOWLEDGE. Children sin, technically, but God doesn't hold it against them. Why? They lack knowledge. If Adam and Eve had not eaten we would be living in absolute oblivion, just clueless, as animals. I would say that in some ways knowledge equaled alot of things that we would be technically better off without. Emotions, for one. The list would be endless if we all came up with things that we wish we didn't know, or at the very least couldn't comprehend. Ignorance truly would be bliss in this case. So, you are right, nothing would change at all, except responsibility...or,the complete lack thereof because we would not be aware that we needed to be. Think of all the things you start to realize as you grow up and then imagine you never realized, and that is humanity minus Adam and Eves sin.

[KramitDaToad 0]

It's true, God knows all... so, what is all? Everything in life has multiple possible endings, and the ONLY... literally the ONLY person that can make choices for you is you. That's your answer, and it's an easy one because YOU don't know your own fate therefore YOU and only YOU have the ability to make the choices that can change or maintain whatever course it is that you are on.

Irrelevant. You don't have to know your fate as it will be revealed to you at some point in the future by the very nature of fate and the question is equally valid retrospectively.Furthermore to say 'You and only You have the ability' is limiting any omnipotent beings that happen to exist.

Also, I don't believe in predestination one bit... I think that God knows and sees all but that is binded by the idea that circumstance and available choice are constantly interacting with time to alter, or create, the future. So, God knows and sees all but what is all exactly? Concrete set in stone endings or all thousands of possible endings? Literally speaking, your fate could change day to day depending on the path you choose today, and God could still make the claim that he saw and knew because he DID see and know all possibilities that were available... again, millions of things happen everyday to come together and intertwine to document life and all of those are moving.. meaning, the future is a liquid, not a solid.

The multiple paths, the 'liquid' future is interesting but it doesn't hold water - 'scuse the pun. It has it's appeal for those who want an easy answer but are too scared, lazy, unwilling or incompetent to think it through. Also your statement 'I think that God knows and sees all but that is binded ...' is again limiting an omnipotent being (OB).Let me give a simple explanation. Prior to you existance there are a set of possible events involving your being that happen sequentially to form these paths we talk about.There are a set of these paths that describe, for the purpose of the discussion, your life starting from your 'creation' and end with you either in Heaven or Hell.Any OB that exists must, by the definition of being all knowing, know of all these paths. It must know all possible endings. Furthermore the OB must know which particular one will occur or again it is not all knowing.To put it another way, if an OB exists it must know all possiblities, but more importantly must know which single possiblity will be reality.So in the Christian worldview, God is an OB, therefore he must know exactly how your life will pan out, so he knew before he even said 'Let there be light' whether and how you will end up in Heaven or Hell.So again, tell me what it is you can do to change this?

[Loismustdie 0]

Irrelevant. You don't have to know your fate as it will be revealed to you at some point in the future by the very nature of fate and the question is equally valid retrospectively.Furthermore to say 'You and only You have the ability' is limiting any omnipotent beings that happen to exist.The multiple paths, the 'liquid' future is interesting but it doesn't hold water - 'scuse the pun. It has it's appeal for those who want an easy answer but are too scared, lazy, unwilling or incompetent to think it through. Also your statement 'I think that God knows and sees all but that is binded ...' is again limiting an omnipotent being (OB).Let me give a simple explanation. Prior to you existance there are a set of possible events involving your being that happen sequentially to form these paths we talk about.There are a set of these paths that describe, for the purpose of the discussion, your life starting from your 'creation' and end with you either in Heaven or Hell.Any OB that exists must, by the definition of being all knowing, know of all these paths. It must know all possible endings. Furthermore the OB must know which particular one will occur or again it is not all knowing.To put it another way, if an OB exists it must know all possiblities, but more importantly must know which single possiblity will be reality.So in the Christian worldview, God is an OB, therefore he must know exactly how your life will pan out, so he knew before he even said 'Let there be light' whether and how you will end up in Heaven or Hell.So again, tell me what it is you can do to change this?

I have never known the christian view as being God knows my ending. Are you omnipotent? Is anything definable omnipotent? Then, excuse my french, how the hell could you even begin to define omnipotence or what it is based on the very fact that it's inconceivable by the human mind, therefore undefinable? If you can't figure out how to put one foot in front of another even God can't help you... and that's a fact.

[KramitDaToad 0]

I have never known the christian view as being God knows my ending.

No I said that Christain world view is that God must be all powerful and all knowing. This implies he knows your ending and has known for all eternity.

Are you omnipotent? Is anything definable omnipotent? Then, excuse my french, how the hell could you even begin to define omnipotence or what it is based on the very fact that it's inconceivable by the human mind, therefore undefinable?

I'm using a loose definition of omnipotent, meaning to be all powerful and to know all. ie Can do anything and knows everything.Because something is inconceivable by the human mind doesn't mean it is undefineable. We have definitions for infinite, null, 4-dimensional space etc however the human mind cannot accurately fully conceive them. Importantly though, we can conceptualise and logically work with them.So it is not too hard to conceptualise and logically work with an entity being 'all knowing'.Therefore God is all knowing and knows your fate (re Heaven or Hell) or he doesn't know your fate and thus is not all knowing. Pretty simple really.So which one is it? Please choose so we can continue. I'll even make it easy for you. Choose one and when we bring it to it's logical conclusion I'll let you admit you were wrong and we can try the other one.

[Loismustdie 0]

No I said that Christain world view is that God must be all powerful and all knowing. This implies he knows your ending and has known for all eternity.I'm using a loose definition of omnipotent, meaning to be all powerful and to know all. ie Can do anything and knows everything.Because something is inconceivable by the human mind doesn't mean it is undefineable. We have definitions for infinite, null, 4-dimensional space etc however the human mind cannot accurately fully conceive them. Importantly though, we can conceptualise and logically work with them.So it is not too hard to conceptualise and logically work with an entity being 'all knowing'.Therefore God is all knowing and knows your fate (re Heaven or Hell) or he doesn't know your fate and thus is not all knowing. Pretty simple really.So which one is it? Please choose so we can continue. I'll even make it easy for you. Choose one and when we bring it to it's logical conclusion I'll let you admit you were wrong and we can try the other one.

Your argument is stupid, because it implies that you have no control over the next move you make, no matter how small, and that is not the case... you are the architect of your destiny, and no one else, unless you are kidnapped and brainwashed Jason Bourne style and if that is the case, sorry,and I hope you find a way to work through that shit. Sure we have definitions of things we can't perceive... which is stupid as well. Why would I define something that I can't fully comprehend? You are handicapped from the get go, working on problems from a basis of guesswork, based on the fact that you really can't even begin to understand what you are talking about. Logically... if you really have to go there from the guy who isn't aware that one foot in front of another would equal choice by his own self... logically it makes no sense to try and solve problems when you can't even begin to understand the concepts surrounding those problems , it's guesswork, literally,by both of us, and foolish at best. I can tell you this... from the looks of it it doesn't take God to see where your end will be, if you continue on your current path... a few different choices and things could change, but right now you are completely lost, so deep in your own supposed understandings and truths you can't even comprehend something as simple as one foot in front of another. Absolutely disgusting.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Come on Lois. Stop being so transparent. If you don't want to answer the question just say so and we can let someone else run with it.

Your argument is stupid, because it implies that you have no control over the next move you make, no matter how small, and that is not the case... you are the architect of your destiny, and no one else, unless you are kidnapped and brainwashed Jason Bourne style and if that is the case, sorry,and I hope you find a way to work through that shit.

Small problem here. I haven't presented an argument. All I have done is ask 2 questions. So to say my argument is stupid is impotent. Let me recap to save you valuble scroll-time.1) I asked that if an omnipotent being knew your fate (specifically regarding your final destination, Heaven or Hell) before you existed what could you do to change it?2) You had problems with the word omnipotent (and yes I should have used omniscient), essentially stating that it is undefinable and inconceivable.3) To help you out I simplified it to be 'All knowing' instead of omnipotent. Now an entity that has knowledge of everything is easily definable and conceivable so that removes your problem at stage 24) This has raised anther question though, based on the following: If an entity knows everything it knows your fate. If an entity does not know your fate the entity does not know everything.This statement is all encompassing and logically sound. It is a Modus Tollens statement (if p then q; not q; therefore not p) so God must fit into either one. So which one is it? Do you think God is all knowing or not? I've underlined it because this is all you need to respond to. Once you do we can return to the original question if necessary.

Sure we have definitions of things we can't perceive... which is stupid as well. Why would I define something that I can't fully comprehend? You are handicapped from the get go, working on problems from a basis of guesswork, based on the fact that you really can't even begin to understand what you are talking about. Logically it makes no sense to try and solve problems when you can't even begin to understand the concepts surrounding those problems , it's guesswork ... and foolish at best.

This must have every great mind in history turning in their graves. Every hero of the intellect is railing at the mistakes you've just written. Mathematicians, scientists philosophers and theologists alike.In fact Jung just called and asked that you never use the word 'logically' again as you've obviously given up the right to do so.

I can tell you this... from the looks of it it doesn't take God to see where your end will be, if you continue on your current path... a few different choices and things could change, but right now you are completely lost, so deep in your own supposed understandings and truths you can't even comprehend something as simple as one foot in front of another. Absolutely disgusting.

Ah, yes the classic finish to you predictable response. You did better than I could've hoped. If you want an explanation regarding your predictablity I would invite you to scroll up to my previous post (#21), find where I have quoted you, and hover your mouse over the word 'french'.Now be a good lad and answer the underlined question or move on. It's really not that hard.

[fighter 4]

Do you think God is all knowing or not?

I will have a go at this because A ) i am a sucker for punishment and B ) louis seems to be agrueing semantics without taking a definition.Ok first off cant an all powerul god create a being it doesnt know the future for. When i first thought about it my first reaction was that it was a "rock so heavy god cant lift" statement but i am still not sure if it is logically impossible.

[Loismustdie 0]

Come on Lois. Stop being so transparent. If you don't want to answer the question just say so and we can let someone else run with it.Small problem here. I haven't presented an argument. All I have done is ask 2 questions. So to say my argument is stupid is impotent. Let me recap to save you valuble scroll-time.1) I asked that if an omnipotent being knew your fate (specifically regarding your final destination, Heaven or Hell) before you existed what could you do to change it?2) You had problems with the word omnipotent (and yes I should have used omniscient), essentially stating that it is undefinable and inconceivable.3) To help you out I simplified it to be 'All knowing' instead of omnipotent. Now an entity that has knowledge of everything is easily definable and conceivable so that removes your problem at stage 24) This has raised anther question though, based on the following: If an entity knows everything it knows your fate. If an entity does not know your fate the entity does not know everything.This statement is all encompassing and logically sound. It is a Modus Tollens statement (if p then q; not q; therefore not p) so God must fit into either one. So which one is it? Do you think God is all knowing or not? I've underlined it because this is all you need to respond to. Once you do we can return to the original question if necessary.This must have every great mind in history turning in their graves. Every hero of the intellect is railing at the mistakes you've just written. Mathematicians, scientists philosophers and theologists alike.In fact Jung just called and asked that you never use the word 'logically' again as you've obviously given up the right to do so. Ah, yes the classic finish to you predictable response. You did better than I could've hoped. If you want an explanation regarding your predictablity I would invite you to scroll up to my previous post (#21), find where I have quoted you, and hover your mouse over the word 'french'.Now be a good lad and answer the underlined question or move on. It's really not that hard.

Your omitting the idea that an all powerful all knowing being could create another being that was completely off his radar if he wanted to. "I am an all powerful all knowing being, and can see the future- whatever that is- yet today I want to create a set of beings that are self multiplying and also control there own fate." I am all powerful being. "Hmmmm...... I like that idea. I will do so." Done. Being all powerful that is possible because anything is possible. The reason I don't answer your simple ass questions is just that... they are simple, and I believe you are smarter than that, so why waste time? There are so many more possibilities than just,"Duhhhhh..if God know my future than I am not free, man. So, then, if he doesn't than he must not be all powerful, man." The problem with that is it only takes into consideration what you can personally define and see, leaving no room for that which is greater than you- meaning, if Mr. Toad can't conceive it well then it must just not be possible. Clearly, it would be because being all powerful, anything is possible, including not knowing your fate. If you would stop getting so excited because you think you have backed me into some sort of corner you would see that. I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and assume that won't happen, though, and you will continue to play your part. You always do.