If You Want Deeper Level Thinking.. This Is The Hand

[WhatArunAA 0]

PokerStars Game #11434497678: Tournament #58017025, $55+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (800/1600) - 2007/08/11 - 17:47:43 (ET)Table '58017025 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 4: NumberoftheB (14260 in chips) Seat 5: WhatArunAA (8520 in chips) Seat 7: pboy (17330 in chips) Seat 8: stiesnking (19075 in chips) Seat 9: melikman (8315 in chips) NumberoftheB: posts the ante 75WhatArunAA: posts the ante 75pboy: posts the ante 75stiesnking: posts the ante 75melikman: posts the ante 75pboy: posts small blind 800stiesnking: posts big blind 1600*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to WhatArunAA [5h 5c]melikman: folds NumberoftheB: raises 4800 to 6400WhatArunAA: ????

[ObeyTheDog 0]

Given no information (and likely even given a lot of information), I'd probably fold here.There's virtually best-case scenario only of a race, you have zero fold equity, you still have opponents behind you, you've lost all first-in vig, and still have a nice open-stealing stack. If this is a SnG, yes you have to gamble more late, but I still think you are better off shoving one of the next 2 random hands before the blinds hit, then you are calling off here.It's close though.What was your feel on the hand and his play, suspending mathematical anaylsis and SnG "to cash" strategy.

[armen13 0]

You are the shortest stack and will need to gamble, also you have two big stacks next to you and the in a few hands you will loose 2400 more in blinds and have very little f/e. This is close. I often do call (shove) here as you may or may not get a better chance and you'd like to double up with 8k vs 6k. Real question is, is the X% chance of making 4th higher EV than Y% chance of a good shot at top 3. I don't know since you would need to include a lot of unknowns of how things would play out if you did double up. You could estimate your chance of winning as % of total chips after doubling up + X% edge you have over other players, and combine that with range of this raiser and chance you will win, vs expected EV if you fold. This ICM modeling gets pretty crude though.

[WhatArunAA 0]

I want some more opinions before I state what I did... come on FCP HELP ME OUT.

[YBravo 0]

Is this a SnG or a tourney?What are your reads on the other players?Given no information, I fold.

[potatoman 0]

(edited) I'm suddenly busy...crap!

I would say 98 per cent of the time, I fold here. I shove only if the table is tight AND the initial raiser is a huge idiot and I have water boiling in the kitchen. This is all assuming it's a sng. In a tournament, I fold 100 per cent.

[armen13 0]

I beleive this is the 45 man turbo sng so they are all in the money. Fifth pays 222$ 1st pays 767$.

[StupidKid 0]

Blah I fold and wait for FIV, but I'm pretty interested to hear what you did and reasons and why this is deeper level thinking etc.I expect sng tutoring!

[Cappy37 0]

Without a SNG Tutor logo in place, I fold here. ;)There are arguments to be made for calling here, but I can't imagine shoving in the hopes that I *might* be in a coinflip to be the +EV play here. I mean, the best scenario we can hope for is Ax where the x is a card 5 or lower.I wish we had more information here, like some player stats or reads. I agree with SK, we are looking to gamble, but we at least want to open a pot to do so. I'd say with pocket 5's most of our value from shoving comes from the chance at adding 30% to our stack without confrontation. We simply don't have that opportunity here. I'm not concerned about FE in the next 2 hands, because we will have FIV, plus it's going to cost anyone essentially 1/2 their stack or more to call us and only 1/10th of their stack to lay down a weak hand. Of course, if it was folded to us with 55, it's an insta shove.

[sabes99 0]

i think you have to gamble, you have only around 5 BBs, you are eventually going to have to get your money in somewhere...i shove it and hope to get in a race and win

[Yahkin 0]

Let me guess. Stop & Go? Flat call off 3/4 of your stack to show major strength and naturally push any flop to get villain to fold even though he has insane odds.

[Shaffer 0]

Wow, maybe I need to go reread my HoH, but I just don't fold 55 in this situation. We are at M<5 and in true desperation territory. I will kick over old ladies to get a chance for a race to double-up here. I know we want to be the aggressor and all, but 55 holds up too well against a wide variety of villain's holdings not to be the hand we make our stand with here.Villain's failure to raise all-in despite M<10 could indicate a stronger-than-average holding (my experience is that it usually does; someone with AA here is wanting action), but I shove here, even in spite of that.And, you never know, villain could flip over 44 :)And obv, a push beats a call here. Any hands we want to fold to a stop-and-go are hands we want to be AIPF with to begin with.

[WhatArunAA 0]

Let me guess. Stop & Go? Flat call off 3/4 of your stack to show major strength and naturally push any flop to get villain to fold even though he has insane odds.

lol.. sarcasm?

[WhatArunAA 0]

I folded.. the reason why is because the BB of the next hand will have slightly more chips then I will.. and I will shove any 2 on his blind and increase my stack by 40% or whatever it is.. I ended up taking 2nd which is beyond the point really.. the point here is that are cards don't matter if you are shoving.. but they matter when you are calling a shove. if I was the short stack and everyone was rather large.. then this is an easy call.. I saw there was an opportunity to get chips next hand so I elected to fold and shove any two next hand. The hand I shoved was 10-4.. I feel much better shoving 10-4 then calling off with 55.

[Cappy37 0]

I feel much better shoving 10-4 then calling off with 55.

<yawn> I was hoping for a deeper level of thinking than that...

I folded.. the reason why is because the BB of the next hand will have slightly more chips then I will.. and I will shove any 2 on his blind and increase my stack by 40% or whatever it is..

Oh wait.. there we go. nh! You should sticky that to the OP, so others with less patience can learn a helpful hint without the scrolling marathon.

[jmbreslin 0]

Excellent point, really takes it beyond the FIV vs. calling into a race debate. Shows how important it is to be aware of other stack sizes and how your position is (and will be) relative to theirs.

[Yahkin 0]

lol.. sarcasm?

I was trying to figure out some deep thinking for this hand.