Calling Reraises Oop

[NoSup4U 0]

So I'm having trouble lately getting 3bet a ton which is expected I guess given that I'm a lagtard now. I don't feel like I've found a comfortable place to be when calling 3bets. Normally I call with any pocket pair and set mine, but lately I've been getting super big 3bet by smart players I think because my calling range has been so wide, and my post flop play so poor. Here are a couple examples:I feel like I should have called here for set value:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownMP ($837.45)CO ($614)NoSup4U ($1470.50)SB ($648)BB ($66)UTG ($600)Preflop: NoSup4U is Button with 7, 7. 3 folds, NoSup4U raises to $18, SB raises to $75, 1 fold, NoSup4U folds.Final Pot: $99Results below: No showdown. SB wins $99.

[NoSup4U 0]

I hate folding this pf:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownBB ($146.10)UTG ($152.80)NoSup4U ($579)Button ($1409)SB ($251.25)Preflop: NoSup4U is MP with 7, 8. 1 fold, NoSup4U raises to $18, Button raises to $84, 2 folds, NoSup4U folds.Final Pot: $111Results below: No showdown. Button wins $111.

[NoSup4U 0]

And finally, this is the same guy as the last hand:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownBB ($345)UTG ($1184.65)NoSup4U ($1032.70)CO ($1363.20)Button ($303)SB ($672)Preflop: NoSup4U is MP with 8, A. 1 fold, NoSup4U raises to $18, CO raises to $90, 3 folds, NoSup4U folds.Final Pot: $117Results below: No showdown. CO wins $117. What do you think of these three hands? Call/fold/reraise?Mark

[Royal_Tour 0]

your weak raises might as well be limps.thats all i gots to say on these 3 hands

[sabes99 0]

i think they are all callable, just because of the value of implied odds in cash games...you could get him to stack off if you hit the right flop

[IBFT 0]

your weak raises might as well be limps.thats all i gots to say on these 3 hands

an open raise of 3xBB is weak??What is strong? (let me clarify: i raise the same with all of my hands, unless there are limpers. That being said, I don't see whats wrong with the standard 3xBB. This is online 6max, not live where you need to raise 42,000xBB to prevent 9 limpers)

[Royal_Tour 0]

an open raise of 3xBB is weak??What is strong? (let me clarify: i raise the same with all of my hands, unless there are limpers. That being said, I don't see whats wrong with the standard 3xBB. This is online 6max, not live where you need to raise 42,000xBB to prevent 9 limpers)

if the standard re-raise has been to an average of 80. it appears as though the opening raise of 18 is relatively weak.if its not weak, than perhaps start limping here and there to keep the preflop raises smaller.I dont see the point in raising preflop with sneaky hands if we are going to fold to bets that represent big PP's.we want to be up against big PP's so we can stack them.

[IBFT 0]

if the standard re-raise has been to an average of 80. it appears as though the opening raise of 18 is relatively weak.if its not weak, than perhaps start limping here and there to keep the preflop raises smaller.I dont see the point in raising preflop with sneaky hands if we are going to fold to bets that represent big PP's.we want to be up against big PP's so we can stack them.

I agree with this.Of the 3 HHs, the only one I would have raised is the 77 hand because we're on the button, I think at that point we need to raise (and I would probably call this raise or reraise depending on how the villains been playing).The 78 and A8, i would limp. I would limp/call with the 78, Im not sure about the A8, it could go either way (i just have a real dislike for suited aces).One thing I'll add. Ive only seen 3 HHs from you, but you raised 3xBB and folded to a reraise each time. You're going to have to do one of 2 things: tighten your raise range so that when they repop you you know you have the best hand or 2) start accepting the action you're getting. If people see you raise/folding a lot, you're going to be put in that situation more often.

[Royal_Tour 0]

The 78 and A8, i would limp. I would limp/call with the 78, Im not sure about the A8, it could go either way (i just have a real dislike for suited aces).One thing I'll add. Ive only seen 3 HHs from you, but you raised 3xBB and folded to a reraise each time. You're going to have to do one of 2 things: tighten your raise range so that when they repop you you know you have the best hand or 2) start accepting the action you're getting. If people see you raise/folding a lot, you're going to be put in that situation more often.

I also thought this.I'm curious to know his raise range with AA - JJ and AK in various positions.You give away too much info about your preflop betting when you raise 3x then fold to strength several times over. And if a smart player pays attention and picks up on this, and notices that you make (example) 5xBB raises with AA-JJ. or whatever, it will be hard to maximize the EV

[cwik 0]

For the first hand. I don't think the villains stack is deep enough to call here for set value. obv your only gonna hit the set 1 outta 7.5 times and the implied odds your getting are about 11-1, but obviously your not gonna stack him here every if not most of the time. On the other hand your still playing the hand in position, so I guess you can call if your willing to call a c-bet on most flops, but I think it is a boarder line call at best. The second hand is similar except it is your stack that is just not deep enough to make this call. Plus your playing this one from out of position. Suited connectors are the kinda hands you wanna play for cheap in multi way pots in position, this is obv not the case here. As for the last hand. Again I just don't see the value of calling the bet here. If you hit your hand (Ace) your either likely to be dominated or you will not getting value out of it, as cards that make your hand are scare cards for your opponents. And in a reraised pot, drawing to a flush is not going to be very cheap.

[tskillz187 0]

Mark thanks for posting some of the problems that you are facing with your new style at $600max. I have not played S/H $600 max successfully online (and I'm not sure how many people have so far that have commented) so I don't know how helpful I can be. I am an overall loser at this level over a small sample of hands.One key that I think people are overlooking is how aggressive these games play, if he is limping these hands he will be calling raises pf, losing control of the hand, and only winning when he is holding the actual best hand. Most people that play at these tables aren't going to stack off light if he only puts up resistance when he does hit. That being said, I don't really know what I would do in these spots, if you're gonna call with 77 I think you have to mix in calls with your suited connectors too.Looking at the three hands just separately and from a stack size perspective, the first one is marginal either way, and the second and third are folds.

[NoSup4U 0]

Hrm interesting discussion so far, I like it. I open to 3X the bb all the time, regardless of my hand. The reason for this is because I want to be able to call a 3bet with a wider range of hands. It effectively 'deepens' the stacks and allows me more play post flop.I never open limp as I feel this gives away your hand range way too much to good players unless you also are equally as likely to open limp big hands. And I never want to do this because with my style if I pick up aces I expect to stack someone, and thats hard to do open limping.Normal reraises to my $18 pf raise would be up to like, $55 or $60 total. I call with all 3 of these hands in that case because the stacks they have behind to win are deep enough in relation to what I have to call for me. But the reason I posted these three hands was because a couple of guys have taken to raising me abnormally large, effectivelly forcing me to play more preflop and taking away my advantage post flop.Mark

[fckthis 0]

First hand-ure actually in position, and SB could be 3betting light due to the fact you're on the button. I at least take a flop here. 2nd hand/3rd-depends on your current image, and his image. I think 78 plays a little easier than A8, due the fact that its a little easier to determine where we are in the hand. These 3 bets are fairly big though, so folding is probably the best line.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I'm not sure how well these hands represent the whole session.My guess is that raising with 78s is a mistake if our raises aren't getting respect.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Mark,It's good that you make a post like this becuase it's a common problem that LAG players face. The answers vary depending on your play and how good your opponent is.The simplest answer is that you need to start 4-betting preflop more once you are facing raises like this. Once you widen the range that you'll come back over the top with it will make your opponents much more wary to try and reraise you without better holdings becuase they will know that you're willing to stack off rather lightly.For the most part, I hate calling reraises when I'm OOP and have a weak hand and no real info about what my opponent is playing back at me with. Hands like this are VERY difficult to win once you have given up the lead since you're unlikely to flop a hand that you really want to go to war with.I think that the hands you showed were kind of weird. For the most part, his reraises were a rather unreasonable "I want the hand to end immediately" type of raise considering that you opened for a standard $18.I guess my suggestion would be to pick some spots and reraise one of their oversized 3-bets and see how they react. Once they see that you're willing to raise and then 4-bet with a weak holding, it will make them think twice before they 3-bet with garbage of their own.That is all,Acid

[Acid_Knight 2]

The first hand is a call because of your position and the fact that your hand might be best.Hand 2 is a fold becuase you're not deep enough to take a flop there OOP. If you had $900+, I'd call that one.Hand 3 is a fold becuase you are deep. You'll get in a lot of trouble if you hit the A and he's got a better one. Your reverse implied odds are pretty crappy unless you could make 2 pair or a flush. OOP makes this a fold.

[whiterice714 0]

an open raise of 3xBB is weak??What is strong? (let me clarify: i raise the same with all of my hands, unless there are limpers. That being said, I don't see whats wrong with the standard 3xBB. This is online 6max, not live where you need to raise 42,000xBB to prevent 9 limpers)

from my experience it's the other way around... what casino are you playing at? it's donk central if you open raise to $12 on a 1/2 table & get 6 callers... every, single, time... then you see people making plays like "well, it (my 9 2) really IS suited... sooooooo i guess i can call $35 of my last $52 looking for nothing but diamonds"you shouldn't go there ever again if that's the case... not unless you wanna get WORSE @ this game...IMOpeople online = like 10x more aggressive than people live... more to the flop / more betting / calling being done... maybe it's me....

[Zach6668 513]

from my experience it's the other way around... what casino are you playing at? it's donk central if you open raise to $12 on a 1/2 table & get 6 callers... every, single, time... then you see people making plays like "well, it (my 9 2) really IS suited... sooooooo i guess i can call $35 of my last $52 looking for nothing but diamonds"you shouldn't go there ever again if that's the case... not unless you wanna get WORSE @ this game...

Also, don't go to these games if you hate money.

[linkwood 0]

from my experience it's the other way around... what casino are you playing at? it's donk central if you open raise to $12 on a 1/2 table & get 6 callers... every, single, time... then you see people making plays like "well, it (my 9 2) really IS suited... sooooooo i guess i can call $35 of my last $52 looking for nothing but diamonds"you shouldn't go there ever again if that's the case... not unless you wanna get WORSE @ this game...IMOpeople online = like 10x more aggressive than people live... more to the flop / more betting / calling being done... maybe it's me....

Honestly, I don't mind games where people made bad calls, putting their money in in bad spots, etc. Sure you're going to get sucked out on more but you stand to make a whole lot of money if you're patient. If people are interested in giving me their money who am I to deny them that right? This is America after all (don't let the terrorists win!).

[whiterice714 0]

lolzyeah i didn't look @ it from that perspective.. however in those cases you're forced to have the best hand every time (try bluffing a donkey off his A 2 on a 3 A 8 flop... doesn't matter if you played the hand to perfection in representation of a set... he's going to call every time anyways)idk, i getting out drawn by terrible play tilts me lolz...

[IBFT 0]

from my experience it's the other way around... what casino are you playing at? it's donk central if you open raise to $12 on a 1/2 table & get 6 callers... every, single, time... then you see people making plays like "well, it (my 9 2) really IS suited... sooooooo i guess i can call $35 of my last $52 looking for nothing but diamonds"you shouldn't go there ever again if that's the case... not unless you wanna get WORSE @ this game...IMOpeople online = like 10x more aggressive than people live... more to the flop / more betting / calling being done... maybe it's me....

I do consider people online to be more aggressive. I don't consider calling a lot preflop to be aggressive, I consider it passive.I've never seen an online game where I had to do more than a standard raise to weed out the zomgwtfbbq hands, but live it seems to be consistent no matter where I play, the standard opening raise is somewhat larger.

[fckthis 0]

Also, don't go to these games if you hate MAKING money.

fyp

[pokerplayer24 0]

All three of the posted hands are probly folds.The first one where u raise 77 from the button is probly somewhat close but the other 2 seem like pretty easy folds.Also for all these hands it really matters what type of players are 3-betting you. Vs ones who play really straight forward / bad in rr pots you can get away with making looser calls pre while better players will continually put you in tough spots on the flop / turn when you hold mid pps, suited connectors and weak aces.And is this lag style a new thing? Ive always had your stats as being really tight.

[whiterice714 0]

I do consider people online to be more aggressive. I don't consider calling a lot preflop to be aggressive, I consider it passive.I've never seen an online game where I had to do more than a standard raise to weed out the zomgwtfbbq <~lolz.. i digs) hands, but live it seems to be consistent no matter where I play, the standard opening raise is somewhat larger.

yeah that's true i must've misunderstood/misread... typically i see more of like a 4x/5x BB being standard raise in live games (from what i've played)also i notice the limit being a HUGE factor in this.. i mean hell if i'm in the mood to gamble & playing .25/.50 i'm gonna call a 3x BB raise from the UTG+1 guy w/ 7 3 suited on the button about half the time if not more... why not try to hit gin i mean shyt, it's fuccing less than $2.00 (about half a gallon of gas these days.. that's like 8 miles in my evo.. BFD) - and bad beating people who play their hand wrong is SO MUCH FUN!!! "WTF how could you play that trash!?" "better than you played that monster, sir" love having the guy w/ AxQx stack off to my 7s3s on a Ax 5s 9s 10s Jc board... ;P*

[NoBBiR 0]

If you don't like lol donkament cash games, don't play 1/2 100 or 200 max NL at Turningstone Casino Resort. It's like 7 to the flop every hand unless someone shoves.