pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $25/$505 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $8091CO: $3378Button: $1325Hero: $6883BB: $1347.25Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with :D UTG raises to $175, CO folds, Button calls, Hero raises to $825, BB folds, UTG calls, Button folds.Flop: ($1875, 2 players)Hero bets $1500, UTG calls.Turn: ($4875, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $2150, Hero ??? Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 call and as played I think you have to c/c river. betting out on river is pretty odd w/the turn line.Most realistic hands that beat us are 55 and 87/89. Calling river bet as long as villain isn't a nit postflop. I would be pretty shocked to see an ace here. Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 hes shown me a couple hands that theyve played previously and it was KK v AA 2twice and top 2 v bottom setso in showdowns hes shown up with big hands...ill just add that in there Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 call and as played I think you have to c/c river. betting out on river is pretty odd w/the turn line.Most realistic hands that beat us are 55 and 87/89. Calling river bet as long as villain isn't a nit postflop. I would be pretty shocked to see an ace here.and i think ck callin flips your hand face up and your going to be facing a pretty large river bet because hes definatley capable of making a big move imo Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 and i think ck callin flips your hand face up and your going to be facing a pretty large river bet because hes definatley capable of making a big move imoyeah, that's why we check/call there. we're not afraid of the ace. only trip 8s and 5s In fact, we're way more likely than he is to have it. If he has the ace, either it's super advanced NL 501 or he's a complete retard. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I wouldn't check/call turn. We only have about $4,500 here and he's betting $2,150 of it, if he has a draw of some kind we don't want him checking behind on the river after missing. If we're playing here we should check/raise all-in on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I wouldn't check/call turn. We only have about $4,500 here and he's betting $2,150 of it, if he has a draw of some kind we don't want him checking behind on the river after missing. If we're playing here we should check/raise all-in on the turn.the only draw that calls is 67 or a weird hand like 79ss w/the backdoor flush draw. Imo I'd rather catch him turn his overpairs into bluffs or any other bluff. Basically, we're getting stacked here.would you stack off on the 885 flop? It's really not that different w/the ace there. Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 the only draw that calls is 67 or a weird hand like 79ss w/the backdoor flush draw. Imo I'd rather catch him turn his overpairs into bluffs or any other bluff. Basically, we're getting stacked here.would you stack off on the 885 flop? It's really not that different w/the ace there.but it significantly changes the play of the hand...cant just pretend its not therei think ck calling leaves u in no mans land on the river and is a poor play Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 we just had a hand very similar to this. i stick by my same analysis and say b/f the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 we just had a hand very similar to this. i stick by my same analysis and say b/f the turn.what if he flat calls hereand what do you think his range is here....and by just by saying bet fold your going to be getting played off a lot of hands, because hes definately capable of representing a wide variety of handsplease post the reasoning from the other thread, just curious to see what it is Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 what if he flat calls hereand what do you think his range is here....and by just by saying bet fold your going to be getting played off a lot of hands, because hes definately capable of representing a wide variety of handsplease post the reasoning from the other thread, just curious to see what it isif he flat calls i'm beat and i know it and pretty much done with the hand.the A is a potenital scare card/action killer for both players. i'm definitely not checking this turn and letting 99-QQ blow me off the hand after showing weakness when the A hits. seems like villian is competent and plays big hands but i'm sure he can/would take a stab. i also bet/fold 99-QQ. of course villian can play AA like he did and well that pretty much sucks although i think he shows up with it with a raise on the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 if he flat calls i'm beat and i know it and pretty much done with the hand.the A is a potenital scare card/action killer for both players. i'm definitely not checking this turn and letting 99-QQ blow me off the hand after showing weakness when the A hits. seems like villian is competent and plays big hands but i'm sure he can/would take a stab. i also bet/fold 99-QQ. of course villian can play AA like he did and well that pretty much sucks although i think he shows up with it with a raise on the flop.hmm, i just dont like this lineyour pretty much sayin, if you have it you have it, if you dont u dont Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 and on the turn if we ck call here we turn our hand face up and hes going to know we have a mid to big pocket pair and is definately shoving the riveranother reason i dont like this line.... Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I fold, he floated an ace. (One of these guys on that table has lost some serious money. )"If he has the ace, either it's super advanced NL 501 or he's a complete retard." Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 I fold, he has an ace. (One of these guys on that table has lost some serious money. )"If he has the ace, either it's super advanced NL 501 or he's a complete retard."lol ? Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 my post got messed up....what was that post mtd? Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 your pretty much sayin, if you have it you have it, if you dont u dontkinda but not really. the A sucks plain and simple. if he floated he hit if he didn't we are pretty much golden except for obvious monsters. i don't show weakness when the A hits and i'm not getting bluffed out of this pot and if he has QQ or less i'm not getting his stack anyways. if he hits the A we should hear about it with a raise. as per your first question it gets complicated if we bet and he calls. Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 kinda but not really. the A sucks plain and simple. if he floated he hit if he didn't we are pretty much golden except for obvious monsters. i don't show weakness when the A hits and i'm not getting bluffed out of this pot and if he has QQ or less i'm not getting his stack anyways. if he hits the A we should hear about it with a raise. as per your first question it gets complicated if we bet and he calls.what makes you think hes only capable of floating with ace high hereit gets complicated but what do you do...and what would the bet sizing be Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 what makes you think hes only capable of floating with ace high hereit gets complicated but what do you do...and what would the bet sizing bei don't see any other hand he can float with. i put villian on 99-KK or AK, rarely AQ. 99-KK wouldn't be a float. but how does he know we didn't c-bet AK and hit. i bet close to same bet as villian say $2,200. now this sucks in general as we only have $2000ish left after our bet, but i expect the bet to take the pot down > 65% of the time. i just can't c/call or c/fold. c/call still puts us with $2000ish left and if we are gonna call the turn we must call the river if he puts in another bet. c/fold can very easily be a rep of an A and attacking our weakness. Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 im going to let some others read the thread before i post anything elsebut if hes floating, why does he need ak or other hands to float Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 i don't see any other hand he can float with. i put villian on 99-KK or AK, rarely AQ. 99-KK wouldn't be a float. but how does he know we didn't c-bet AK and hit. i bet close to same bet as villian say $2,200. now this sucks in general as we only have $2000ish left after our bet, but i expect the bet to take the pot down > 65% of the time. i just can't c/call or c/fold. c/call still puts us with $2000ish left and if we are gonna call the turn we must call the river if he puts in another bet. c/fold can very easily be a rep of an A and attacking our weakness.Agreed. We're all or nothing on the turn with KK and an ace on the board. Don't forget villain raised PF from UTG, I think Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 Agreed. We're all or nothing on the turn with KK and an ace on the board. Don't forget villain raised PF from UTG, I thinkso what approach do u take Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 It's about time we got an interesting hand posted here.The troubling thing for me is the bet sizing by the villain. The turn bet is a really small bet that he shouldn't expect to get a fold from us too often becuase most of our range is made up of pocket pairs and AK/AQ type hands, assuming that we're reraising for value and not bluffing as a squeeze. Most of our range either hit the A or discounts it from his range due to the action so far. It really looks like he's setting up a more callable shove on the river.OP-Do we know much about the villain's range here?Hands he's shown down? Any unusual plays he's made?I'm still not sure what I'd do here yet. We're really beating the chunk of his range that floats us when he thinks we're squeezing, but not a ton else. After making that turn bet, I don't think that most players are gonna value bet a hand like 99-JJ all that often and they're even less likely to turn it into a bluff.If I'm making my mind to show this down, I think the line to take is call the turn and donk shove the river. If we're call/calling, I think we are paying him off more than we probably should be and missing value from QQ/JJ type hands when he checks behind. CRAI on the turn folds out a lot of the hands that would give us value.I'm not really loving any of the options. Bet/fold the turn just seems kinda spewy and we're always folding out worse hands or making them bluff shove on us by betting the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 my post got messed up....what was that post mtd?I don't have an account, but I just checked the players at this table on sharkscopeno one at this table is a winning sng player on sharkscopeone of these guys has lost almost $100KI'm not sure what that means overall, but if you can't beat sngs ... so what approach do u takeIf he's moving on us with something we still beat after being reraised PF and bet into on the flop, good for him. What do you think "not really" means? Link to post Share on other sites
pt special 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 It's about time we got an interesting hand posted here.The troubling thing for me is the bet sizing by the villain. The turn bet is a really small bet that he shouldn't expect to get a fold from us too often becuase most of our range is made up of pocket pairs and AK/AQ type hands, assuming that we're reraising for value and not bluffing as a squeeze. Most of our range either hit the A or discounts it from his range due to the action so far. It really looks like he's setting up a more callable shove on the river.OP-Do we know much about the villain's range here?Hands he's shown down? Any unusual plays he's made?I'm still not sure what I'd do here yet. We're really beating the chunk of his range that floats us when he thinks we're squeezing, but not a ton else. After making that turn bet, I don't think that most players are gonna value bet a hand like 99-JJ all that often and they're even less likely to turn it into a bluff.If I'm making my mind to show this down, I think the line to take is call the turn and donk shove the river. If we're call/calling, I think we are paying him off more than we probably should be and missing value from QQ/JJ type hands when he checks behind. CRAI on the turn folds out a lot of the hands that would give us value.I'm not really loving any of the options. Bet/fold the turn just seems kinda spewy and we're always folding out worse hands or making them bluff shove on us by betting the turn.not much, i havent played with him and the have only seen hands that hero has sent to me on aim were big pots with him showing down good hands, ill ask him what his image isand as to not turning mid pairs into a bluf i think thats not true at all, i think hes turning hands like this into a bluf almost 100 percent of the timeand to add a little bit more into it hero was just stacked by this player about 5 hands before with hero had kk vs aa, so heros image might not be the greatest...so villian can definatley think hero is rr'ing light Link to post Share on other sites
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