Pot Odds... Are they really necessary vs. bad players?

[DownSouth7 0]

Merry Christmas, guys! Im a new member to this forum and writing my 1st topic; however, I've been reading the posts on this forum for about a week now and greatly admire your contributions. Im 14 years old (yeah, a little young... i guess) and have been playing poker for about a year. I do know a little about the game, I've read Super System and Caro's Book of Tells, but would consider myself a poker novice. Back to the topic...I've played in 5 poker tournys with my friends this month and have won them all; a 10-man, 26-man, 19-man, 9-man, and 11-man tournament all in a row. The people I played with were VERY bad players. I didn't use pot odds once, but won all the tournaments. I mostly relied on tells. Was it sheer luck that I won, or are pot odds not necessary against bad players?Any comments are appreciated.Thanks,DownSouth7

[Smasharoo 0]

Was it sheer luck that I won?Yes, absolutely.

[Smasharoo 0]

I should point out that it's pretty clear even from your short paragraph here that you have no idea what you're doing.Don't lose money by playing anyone other your freinds for the moment.

[rkard 0]

You should always figure out rough pot odds, it's so easy to do it's silly not to. People who say they don't use pot odds or don't know the maths behind the game are usually people who have played for so long that they're subconciously getting pot odds and knowing when to or not to call based on it. I find it hard to believe that you mostly relied on tells.

[copernicus 0]

The likelihood is that you probably have enough "common sense" to know a really bad call without calculating pot odds. In situations where the pot odds are close but insufficient the "cost" of a bad call is correspondingly small, even if implied odds arent there to justify taking a card off.If you are in the territory of calling when you seriously have the worst of it consistently, you will lose more or win less than you could have. If they make worse calls than you, you may still win, but it will be pocket change instead of folding cash.As far as the winning streak goes, you were just lucky unless the opponents have absolutely no sense of the value of hands, especially at the turn and river. Playing against 25 players that randomly fold/call/raise pre flop and flop and are just halfway decent on 4th and 5th st, you arent a favorite to win the tourney.

[wrto4556 0]

This isn't my thread, but I thank the few of you (Copernicus and Rkad to name two) that actually gave a mature answer. It's definately worth it to count your pot odds. Make sure you know them real well, because in tournaments, sometimes you will make a call that has barely insufficient pot odds because the implied odds are through the roof. If you don't know what "barely insufficient" is exactly, you might find yourself making some bad calls and pissing away a little more chips than what you would like. Pot odds are certainly a must in any style of poker...You have to know if you will turn a profit off of your draw, no matter if it's Mr. Daniel Negreanu himself betting into you, or some tourist who thinks 32o is just as good as AKs "with the right flop". Having said that, don't simply rely on pot odds to win a tournament, the same for tells....Use it all, push any edge you have over your opponent (read my signiture at the bottom). Good luck to you. You have alot of learning ahead of you, as do alot of people that write on this forum (including myself), and the best way to learn, is to put into practice what you already know.PS. Push those edges, bro.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Well its about 3:15 am here and I just got back from a christmas night poker game (Do you think its bad that 7 of us found the time Christmas Night to get a big game together?). This post caught my eye, I will explain why Pot Odds are essential to your game by going through a hand.We've been playing for... 4 hours by the time this hand comes up and its down to 3 handed 2 were taking a break and 2 were out. I get dealt :clubsa: :clubsq: on the button. As its only three handed, this is also UTG! I raise it up 3x BB (Our stacks were very large compared to blinds, this was not a HUGE raise at this point in the game). The small blind folds, Big blind calls.Flop comes: :clubs9: :hearts5: :clubsk: The guy left in the pot with me is a very aggresive player by the wayHe bets 3x BB and I think he has a pair here, as he's seriously capable of having just the pair of Fives. I decide to just callThe fourth street brings a rag card, no signifiicance, it was a :spades4: He Bets here again making it 6x BB, so a total of 26.5x the big-blind are in the pot now, counting there forced bets. I counted about 13.5 outs left in the deck. 9 Clubs, 1.5 Queens and 3 Aces (The Queens I count as .5 each, because Even if that card hit, I would be worried about the King and my not call a large raise). This is where pot-odds come into play. As the hand stands, I don't think my Ace high can win it, without bluffing a guy who is very hard to bluff off of his hand. So I calculated in my head, the pot is laying me a little more than 1-5 odds as it STANDS. The implied odds were huge here, I had a 1-4 shot of making my hand on the river. So with the pot laying 1-5, my chances of winning 1-4 and knowing that if I do hit my card, I will take down a much larger pot, I made the call.The river brought :clubs3: and I had my made hand, He went out and bet 10xBB, I diliberated, and re-raised him 20xBB to make it a total of 30xBB for him to call, he called adding 60x BB. So I won a huge hand here, using Pot Odds to justify chasing my hand. A year and a half ago, I fold this hand, because I did not know the true benefits of Pot Odds and Implied Odds.That hand is a classic example of Why pot odds are crucial to success at a poker table.

[JaysonWeber 0]

For the Record... he had k-3 here, and only called because he had hit his two pair and thought I had AK. He is not by any means a weak player, he is a rather strong-aggresive player, with a dash of Gus Hansen

[jayboogie 0]

ummm isn't that a full house? 3's over kings? if 3's were running cards, should be good enough to beat your flush I'd think, unless somethings changed in poker

[rkard 0]

ummm isn't that a full house? 3's over kings?  if 3's were running cards, should be good enough to beat your flush I'd think, unless somethings changed in poker  

lol yea, just noticed that as well. :clap: Jayson Weber! :twisted:

[DownSouth7 0]

Great story jayson... even if he did have a full house and you had a flush.

[JaysonWeber 0]

WOOPS! No that 4th street is just supposed to be a rag! Lol Sorry guys, I'll change that! He did NOT have a fullhouse haha, I can barely read those damn cards I should have looked over the post!

[Blast Tyrant 0]

DownSouth7,At 14 you have a lot poker trials ahead of you and I wish you luck. Do not let throwing pot odds out the window against bad players be a trial you fail. Pot odds should always be considered. Bad players pay off good players by not considering pot odds and their % chance on winning a pot. And against bad players you need not take chances by drawing at hands not giving you proper pot odds to do so. Against good players, you sometimes have to take chances with not so proper pot odds at the right times to gain a chip advantage to give yourself an increased chance to win the tournament. You won't need to take chances like that to gain a chip advantage to beat out bad players most of the time, most of the time mind you.As stated, implied odds are important in tournament play. You can take a risk that doesn't give you proper pot odds, but you are quite sure that if you hit your card you can bust somebody and take a huge pot. I think that JaysonWeber made a mistake in his implied odds take in his post though. The pot was laying 5 to 1 to call with 1 card to go and about a 30% chance of hitting. Yet he's up against an aggressive player who may actually be betting bottom pair. That being the case, this player is not certain to give you action if you hit, and 7 out of 10 time you will not hit. His bets already could be scared bets by him if he's betting bottom pair and gets called twice. And he would certainly slow down on the river if the club Jayson needed hit. It did hit but also gave the other player 2 pair. If he doesn't catch 2 pair there and only has top pair kings and a 3 kicker, I'm not sure you get much action when a flush card hits. And to put him on a strong king where he might pay off would probably have him re-raising pre-flop. So, I don't think implied odds play into this hand example.Keep your chip stacks high,Blast Tyrant

[NYSPOKER 0]

In a tourney against good players, pot odds come into play less as, a good player will bet his top pair sufficiently to take away your odds to call. If you do call and catch your card, they will not give much action. Implied odds still have value in a tourney with good players, ewspecially when your hand is well concealed.Against weaker players, pot odds are more improtant. They will will not bet enough to make your draws too expensive.As you see, pot/implied odds can be used when betting, as well as when deciding to call. If you bet enough to make them chasing the wrong decision - and they call, you make money, every time they miss.

[Big_Puke 0]

Hi Down South, I think you should be considering pot odds against all players! This is a vital key to success online and in the B&M's too. In addition your though process should also include the correct starting hands to play and position at the table in relation to starting hands.If you need help with pot odds and hand rankings look into software that can be used online while you play to figure this stuff out. ie Sklansky theory. It may slow down your game but it can save you allot of money in the long run!

[vegasholdem 0]

pot odds all tha way!

[copernicus 0]

In a tourney against good players, pot odds come into play less as, a good player will bet his top pair sufficiently to take away your odds to call. .

This is self-contradictory. They don't come into play less, they come into play whenever the "good player....takes away your odds to call". You arent calling precisely because you are taking into account pot odds.As far as implied odds go, I haven't read a thread here or on 2+2 that actually discusses the right way to calculate them, and I doubt many top players even know how. They have a feel for what they can win on the river if they dont catch on the turn, but don't really know the implied odds.

[Eskimo 0]

I have a question about implied odds, heres the example:in a NL Hold'em tourny, heads-up.Me: 4,000$ in chips, 2nd to act.Opponent: 2,000$ in chips, 1st to act.300$ in the pot pre-flop. I have 67 and my opponent has K4. Flop is K48.My opponent bets 150$. The odds are 10 to 1 against me hitting my inside straight. The pot is laying me 3 to 1. If I hit my straight, im going to put him all-in. So thats 2,000/150. The real pot is laying me 13 to 1 and I should call the 150$ bet.Is this the correct method to justify a call due to implied odds?

[copernicus 0]

I have a question about implied odds, heres the example:in a NL Hold'em tourny, heads-up.Me: 4,000$ in chips, 2nd to act.Opponent: 2,000$ in chips, 1st to act.300$ in the pot pre-flop. I have 67 and my opponent has K4. Flop is K48.My opponent bets 150$. The odds are 10 to 1 against me hitting my inside straight. The pot is laying me 3 to 1. If I hit my straight, im going to put him all-in. So thats 2,000/150. The real pot is laying me 13 to 1 and I should call the 150$ bet.Is this the correct method to justify a call due to implied odds?

No. Even on a simplistic level your odds against hitting the straight by the river are only about 5/1, so if you know you'll get a free card to see the river (if you miss the turn), those are the approximate odds you would be looking for.A true implied odds calculation is much more complex. You need to look at the streets separately (eg if you hit on the turn what is the bet and the potential payoff, if you dont hit on the turn whats his bet and will you have odds to call that bet. You also have to take into account that he may not call the all-in bet by weighting down the payoff. You also have to factor in the risk you will take the river bet, because he does have outs that will beat your straight.Tournament play introduces even more considerations, because what you are really concerned with (at least at some stages in the tournament) is not the implied odds in tournament chips, but the "implied odds" in terms of cash payouts.You say you are heads up here with a 2/1 stack advantage. Heads up for this hand or the tournament is down to 2 players? How aggressive is he...will you ever get to see the river or will you be priced out of it (the likely scenario).