pumping a draw

[mrdannyg 274]

first of many. comments on this hand?Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is Button with 6:spade:, 5:spade:. [color:#666666]1 fold[/color], UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.Flop: (10.50 SB) 7:club:, 4:spade:, 6:diamond: [color:#0000FF](5 players)[/color][color:#CC3333]BB bets[/color], UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.Turn: (13.75 BB) 9:diamond: [color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color][color:#CC3333]BB bets[/color], UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.River: (17.75 BB) 6:club: [color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color][color:#CC3333]BB bets[/color], UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.Final Pot: 29.75 BB

[mrdannyg 274]

sorry, multi-tabling for first time in a while, so i'm having some questionable decisions

[econ_tim 0]

I like it.You've got plenty of pot equity on the flop, so pump it up.I'd be somewhat worried about a boat on the river, but pot is too big to fold.

[cdddc75 0]

Raising the flop for a free card would be fine, but three betting is crazy. Someone else might already have a straight or set, so you're going to have a hard time drawing out here.It's Party 2/4, so maybe your trips/two pair draw is live, but doubtful.

[Guest]

Raising the flop for a free card would be fine, but three betting is crazy. Someone else might already have a straight or set, so you're going to have a hard time drawing out here.It's Party 2/4, so maybe your trips/two pair draw is live, but doubtful.

While Party 2/4 is better than Party .5/1, it's still pretty fishy. The 6's might be live but the 5's probably aren't. I don't like the 3 bet either as I find it highly unlikely you're not behind here and hoping to hit your straight. The 6's might be live but it's hard to tell.Zara

[econ_tim 0]

Raising the flop for a free card would be fine, but three betting is crazy. Someone else might already have a straight or set, so you're going to have a hard time drawing out here.It's Party 2/4, so maybe your trips/two pair draw is live, but doubtful.

While Party 2/4 is better than Party .5/1, it's still pretty fishy. The 6's might be live but the 5's probably aren't. I don't like the 3 bet either as I find it highly unlikely you're not behind here and hoping to hit your straight. The 6's might be live but it's hard to tell.Zara

He doesn't have to be ahead to bet.It's pretty unlikely that someone has a straight. The OP has an OESD on the flop and there are 4 other players in with him. When he makes a straight he will often have the best hand, and he will make the straight 35% of the time. If people call him, he's only putting in 20% of the money. So he should get the other players to put in as many bets as possible.

[mrdannyg 274]

my thoughts were about the 1/3 number - i figured i'll win the hand after the flop 1/3 of the time, so with 4 in i thought i'd pump it. my goal was to see the turn for one bet by 3-betting, or even possibly see it for free.on the river i was quite sure i was beaten, but as a previous poster said, it was just too big a pot. really not sure why the player with the boat didn't cap, but that's a minor point. i think the river raise by 77 clearly indicates by trips are no good. lost another pot as that was going on with AcQx against KcKx and 10cJc, where three clubs flopped after capped pre-flop and none more came, bah!still managed to win a ton of hands though and was up 46bb in 370 hands despite those two.also was wondering about this situation:i raise in the CO with JQo in a 7-way table when its folded to me. wild player was in the bb. flops out ace-high, he check/calls the whole way and takes down the pot with k10. next time i have 99 and he calls me to river with jack-high, so i win.a little later i have 10-10, flop comes j-high. turns a third diamond. river comes a queen - normallyi'd check this river since i'm not beating much. but against this guy, should i assume he's learned his lesson and won't call me with some crap, or assume he's a moron and will call again.he was definitely capable of check-raising, and had not shown the propensity to call other people down to the river.just curious what other people's impressions of the mental states of opponents at this level are.cheers,daniel

[Guest]

Raising the flop for a free card would be fine, but three betting is crazy. Someone else might already have a straight or set, so you're going to have a hard time drawing out here.It's Party 2/4, so maybe your trips/two pair draw is live, but doubtful.

While Party 2/4 is better than Party .5/1, it's still pretty fishy. The 6's might be live but the 5's probably aren't. I don't like the 3 bet either as I find it highly unlikely you're not behind here and hoping to hit your straight. The 6's might be live but it's hard to tell.Zara

He doesn't have to be ahead to bet.It's pretty unlikely that someone has a straight. The OP has an OESD on the flop and there are 4 other players in with him. When he makes a straight he will often have the best hand, and he will make the straight 35% of the time. If people call him, he's only putting in 20% of the money. So he should get the other players to put in as many bets as possible.

I actually put his chances much closer to 20-25% to win. With that much action there's a good chance there is either a set out, a random made straight, or a higher straight draw, not to mention possible backdoor flushes. It's either this or both the BB and UTG+2 have overpairs but there is still UTG+1 and the CO to worry about.Even if he does make the straight on the turn, he can still lose to a backdoor flush or the board pairing giving someone a full house. If this happens, the OP could stuck for a bunch of bets with a good but second best hand.In this particular case, after the 9 hitting, the 8 isn't a great out anymore. Now, any 10 (like 1010) has him beat though he did make his draw.I'd be curious to see what the actual hands were and run them through CardPlayer's calculator to see where he actually stood on the flop.Zara

[Guest]

Furthermore, with you 3 betting it, you don't know if all 5 people are going to come along for the ride or if fewer are because they figure they're beat.Zara

[mrdannyg 274]

at this table, and with those players, you could assume that all of them would be in to a 3-bet.the hands were 5s,6s (me), and the other players had 77, 88 and AA - not sure of the suits, but i believe the flop was rainbow, so no backdoor flushes would be available to these players.i'd be interested to know the odds within the calculator too. can't remember the 5th hand unfortunately.cheers,daniel

[Guest]

at this table, and with those players, you could assume that all of them would be in to a 3-bet.the hands were 5s,6s (me), and the other players had 77, 88 and AA - not sure of the suits, but i believe the flop was rainbow, so no backdoor flushes would be available to these players.i'd be interested to know the odds within the calculator too. can't remember the 5th hand unfortunately.cheers,daniel

Odds calculated using http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas...oldem/index.phpUsing those hands, you will win about 23.1% of the time based on the flop cards (this is best case assuming no other spades are out so your backdoor flush is the livest.) Only 15% of the time after the turn. Maybe I just got lucky, but this is an approximate range of hands I put people on. This is the kind of setup that is the worst for your hand and makes it a very thin 3-bet on the flop. I figured there was at least one overpair from the BB (QQ-AA), two pair or a set from the flop raiser, with small chance of OESD, and who knows what in UTG+1 and the CO.In situations like this I tend on the more cautious move. I may leave a tiny bit on the table when I do have an edge, but I avoid giving away more if I don't have that edge.Zara

[Absolute 0]

3-betting this flop is horrible. The rest is fine.

[mrdannyg 274]

i still think my 3-bet on the flop was a good reason why i didn't have to call two bets on the turn, which was a big part of my strategy.i didn't guess it, but the percentages were definitely out of my favour since one guy held 88. i didn't really take into account that my straight would not have given me the whole pot, which should definitely have been a key consideration.

[Absolute 0]

it's not a free card move when its multi way on a board like that.3betting there was no good

[wrto4556 0]

absolute is right.

[mrdannyg 274]

clearly not a 'free card' play, but showing strength on such a coordinated flop from the button surely could discourage overpockets from betting into the other strong player, thereby giving me a $4 card on the turn instead of an $8 one.i love pretending to look smart after we saw the cards. basically though i was trying the old 'free card' play, but figured it would be more getting it cheaper than getting it for free.i think that the 3-bet was only the right play given how AA played the river, which is information i did not have the time. in a more regular situation, i think you guys are right that the 3-bet was unnecessary.

[JaysonWeber 0]

clearly not a 'free card' play, but showing strength on such a coordinated flop from the button surely could discourage overpockets from betting into the other strong player, thereby giving me a $4 card on the turn instead of an $8 one.i love pretending to look smart after we saw the cards.  basically though i was trying the old 'free card' play, but figured it would be more getting it cheaper than getting it for free.i think that the 3-bet was only the right play given how AA played the river, which is information i did not have the time.  in a more regular situation, i think you guys are right that the 3-bet was unnecessary.

Fancy Play Syndrome? Remember who you're playing.