Frez 0 Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is BB with 3 , 4 . 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (6 SB) K , 4 , 3 (6 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.Turn: (5 BB) 2 (4 players)SB bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, Button 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls.River: (14 BB) T (3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls.Final Pot: 17 BB??? Link to post Share on other sites
SCS 0 Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Cap turn. Bet river. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Cap turn. Bet river.Strongly disagree.SB donks the turn which means he improved. This is sometimes a flush draw, sometimes a better two-pair, sometimes a donk bluff play or just top pair. I like our raise, it's standard, as we're probably still ahead. The button, when faced with 2 cold THREE-BETS! We're almost never ahead of him. We could get away on the turn if SB capped, but since he didn't, we should just call down, and fold for 2 bets on the river.All in all, I play it the same as you. NH.Sorry A5o got there. Link to post Share on other sites
SCS 0 Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Strongly disagree.SB donks the turn which means he improved. This is sometimes a flush draw, sometimes a better two-pair, sometimes a donk bluff play or just top pair. I like our raise, it's standard, as we're probably still ahead. The button, when faced with 2 cold THREE-BETS! We're almost never ahead of him. We could get away on the turn if SB capped, but since he didn't, we should just call down, and fold for 2 bets on the river.All in all, I play it the same as you. NH.Sorry A5o got there. Listen to this advice. It's better.Yes, I'm indecisive sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Listen to this advice. It's better.Yes, I'm indecisive sometimes.Bleh, just wait for CM to come in and tell you to cap every street, or Actuary to come in and say that he was SLAPpy, and to call down the turn donk, lol. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 pretty standard, although i think we might can fold the river UIthere's not much we're beating, except a badly played AK or AAi like the turn raise and I never cap the turn after button's 3-bet Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Bleh, just wait for CM to come in and tell you to cap every street, or Actuary to come in and say that he was SLAPpy, and to call down the turn donk, lol.<_<I play it the same s OPTurn raise is a must on that board and pot.only debaateble things:1. Bet or c/r the flop - I lean to c/r to protect and risk potential chk thru.... or at least I'll open the debate2 Call or fold river ( I'd think -ev to call; but I'm not folding w/o seeing cards face up ) Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 1. Bet or c/r the flop - I lean to c/r to protect and risk potential chk thru.... or at least I'll open the debate2 Call or fold river ( I'd think -ev to call; but I'm not folding w/o seeing cards face up )1. I always just lead in these pots, meh, I don't hate a c/r though. I don't necessarily know which one is better.2. If it is -EV, it's not by much for 16-1. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 i hate a c/r on this board. too many hands miss and will just check, risking it gets checked through (but in that case, we have those hands drawing slim) but we risk giving free cards to pocket pairs, gutshots, etc. also, 16-1 is big odds. overcall is fine with our hand and this board and the action, just aside from stupidly played AA or AK or KQ or something i dont see what we beat. then again, i guess it is a badly played AK or KQ enough to call for 16-1 Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 what board would you c/r Rise? Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 First of all... it's important to realize that "flopping bottom two pair out of the blinds" can be a dangerous thing, not a good thing. Doyle Brunson says he's lost more money on bottom two pair than any other hand. It's very easy for your hand to be counterfeited... but you still have a strong hand that you have to play fast... which is why it sucks when your hand is suddenly worthless on the turn or river.I greatly prefer check/raising to leading out on this flop. Our number 1 priority is to get folders on the flop. By betting, a bunch of people behind us might peel, which makes the pot bigger, AND assures that more people will call if there's a raise from late position. Now the pot's huge, and there are tons of bad cards that can come off.Since a ton of bad cards can come off, I think you're best off taking the risk of it checking around, and hoping for a late-position bet that we can check/raise to run out the people in the middle... rather than whipsawing everybody if there's a bet coming from late position. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 TJ, exactly which bad cards can come on the turn? Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Well, both kings are catastrophically bad, and straighten-ing or flush-en-ing cards are sorta bad.But on the river, if we got a straightened card or a flushy card on the turn (of which we got both)... now any diamond, ace, 5, king, or deuce would effectively crap all over our hand.The point is, though, I think you're more often gonna fold more people out on the flop by going for the check/raise than by leading out here. And, if it checks around, then bad cards can come on the turn and we don't care too too much if we have to get away from the hand. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 but by hoping for a c/r youre hoping someone in LP limped with a K or pocket pair that they'll bet, and that it gets checked around to LP, and that it doesnt check through anyway. if there are tons of bad cards, why do we want to risk giving a free one?just bet, most hands are pretty far behind you here, go ahead and extract value. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 see, now we have a thread!Funny how we overlook some streetsI'm with TJ, 55/45 Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Since a ton of bad cards can come offi really dont think there are that many bad cards that can come off. there's 3 Ks, and well, that's really about itthere's some cards that fill some random straight draws although by just leading the only draws that have odds to call are open ended draws (unless you add in some implied odds).and im not really scared of runner runner bad cards coming off (flushening or straightening cards)well, if they did i wouldn't like our hand, but we really shouldn't be worried about runner runner when betting on the flop Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I would never fold a gut shot on that flop.At least not for 1 sb Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I would never fold a gut shot on that flop.At least not for 1 sbme either, but betting out is better than giving them a potential free shot at it, imo Link to post Share on other sites
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