An Atheist Scientist Turns To God

[Zeatrix 0]

This is a great example of why I don't have faith. It makes no sense, but at the same time, you can explain everything with it...

[DerekTah 0]

No, my lack of action is the cause, in that I am in control. Just like God is, of evrything.

No, your lack of action is not the cause, you daughters action is the cause. Your daughter is the one who decided to eat too much ice cream causing a tummy ache. It was your daughter in control of her own decision. The ice cream in her system caused the tummy ache, your lack of action was just that.Now the reason why I decided not to comment about god not liking what going on in america is because very simply I image god does not like what going on anywhere in the world. Can you name the magic land on earth where god is happy with its people.Now that I commented on something you think I avoided, I want you to answer a question you avoided, namely which paticular action taken by america caused the tragity to occur.

[Loismustdie 0]

No, your lack of action is not the cause, you daughters action is the cause. Your daughter is the one who decided to eat too much ice cream causing a tummy ache. It was your daughter in control of her own decision. The ice cream in her system caused the tummy ache, your lack of action was just that.Now the reason why I decided not to comment about god not liking what going on in america is because very simply I image god does not like what going on anywhere in the world. Can you name the magic land on earth where god is happy with its people.Now that I commented on something you think I avoided, I want you to answer a question you avoided, namely which paticular action taken by america caused the tragity to occur.

You- as usual- are missing the point. The lack of of my action is just as much a reason as her actions, in that I allowed it, you dig? She is 6, I obviously call the shots. If you can't see that I can't help you. As for your question, apparently you haven't read a word I said. I point at a plethora of issues God would be unhappy with. I left nothing out. Maybe your right, though, apparently the message would be completely lost. Why go out of his way? I mean, he's never done it before, right? The flood never happened, Sodom and Ghommora never happened, God has never punished anybody, right? He never enslaved his people, didn't make them wander in the wilderness for 40 years- never happened.

[Loismustdie 0]

This is a great example of why I don't have faith. It makes no sense, but at the same time, you can explain everything with it...

Might as well just walk into the room and say,"Hi, I am going to hell, what is your name?" Maybe I should have started a different thread, but actual issues are being discussed here about something we believe in. So, unless you have something to add that isn't mundane rehashed leftist rhetoric, kindly stay away.

[PlayingPossum 0]

Anyone else that follows the christian faith have any reason that God would allow such a horrible thing to happen? Anyone? Alot of criticism, but I see nobody else is willing to come up with an idea of there own. Obviously, I cannot speak for God, but it was one of the first things that I thought about, how for the most part our institutions are about anything but God, and look at them now. Nowhere else to turn but him. Or,he just doesn't care one hoot about the people at that school, and as the scriptures say,"Time and chance happens to them all." I think in this case it is much bigger than that. I think this is a case where he allowed it. For all you christians, what do you think? What's your explanation? Is,"The lord works in mysterious ways" really good enough for you? It isn't for me. Things happens for a reason, all things- now, can you at least attempt to give a reason, even if it means taking criticism for it? Are you christians on this board really aware of what God is capable of? The carnage of 2 days ago is so small compared to what will happen in the end- why is it so hard to think God is not prepared to let atrocities happen to wake his people up? The reality is this- God is both great and terrible, he can and will inflict great pain to make his points. He enslaved his own people, caused David to lose a child, etc.- he will do what it takes to save souls, and in some cases that means sacrificing other souls to do it. Why is that concept so hard to face, why the need to deny what he can do, when it comes to what he can inflict as far as punishment. If you are going to accpet God you have got to accept all of him, not just the flowers and roses that you receive on Sunday.

Wow. Just wow. If that really is an accurate depiction of the Christian God, and I am in fact wrong about the lack of deities in the world, I will go to hell just to stay away from him.Of course, it's really just Lois's sick imagination and interpretation, although, after reading the Bible, it's not hard to see how he could come up with that.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Or,he just doesn't care one hoot about the people at that school, and as the scriptures say,"Time and chance happens to them all." I think in this case it is much bigger than that. I think this is a case where he allowed it. For all you christians, what do you think? What's your explanation? Is,"The lord works in mysterious ways" really good enough for you? It isn't for me. Things happens for a reason, all things- now, can you at least attempt to give a reason, even if it means taking criticism for it? Are you christians on this board really aware of what God is capable of? The carnage of 2 days ago is so small compared to what will happen in the end- why is it so hard to think God is not prepared to let atrocities happen to wake his people up? The reality is this- God is both great and terrible, he can and will inflict great pain to make his points. He enslaved his own people, caused David to lose a child, etc.- he will do what it takes to save souls, and in some cases that means sacrificing other souls to do it. Why is that concept so hard to face, why the need to deny what he can do, when it comes to what he can inflict as far as punishment. If you are going to accpet God you have got to accept all of him, not just the flowers and roses that you receive on Sunday.

You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18). Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. On April 16, 2007, this nation, through the offices of your military and conspirators therewith took a shot at the servants of God -- your marksman was limp and lame and he had terror all around, so he did a lousy job. But what you get for your trouble is that your God shot at you! The LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children, and he didn't miss. Get this straight -- God sent this South Korean madman to kill 31 of your children at Virginia Tech. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

Scarily similar.I think we have a very disturbed individual amongst us...

[Zeatrix 0]

Might as well just walk into the room and say,"Hi, I am going to hell, what is your name?" Maybe I should have started a different thread, but actual issues are being discussed here about something we believe in. So, unless you have something to add that isn't mundane rehashed leftist rhetoric, kindly stay away.

Many Americans don't seem to know what left politics really is. Democrats aren't left, they're right wing. Conservatives are only more right. As far as I know the US doesn't have a big party that really pushes a left-wing agenda. I've voted right in every election that I've been able to vote on. And no, I won't go to hell, there is no such thing. And if there is such a thing as hell, at least I'll meet you there so we can continue this discussion.

[WrongWay 0]

Many Americans don't seem to know what left politics really is. Democrats aren't left, they're right wing.

Left and right are relative to the center. The center of the United States is far further right than Europe, that is for sure. We do have left wing parties (what a European would consider left), like the socialists and such, they just don't get votes.... less than 0.03% of the vote in 2004 presidential election.

[Zeatrix 0]

Left and right are relative to the center. The center of the United States is far further right than Europe, that is for sure. We do have left wing parties (what a European would consider left), like the socialists and such, they just don't get votes.... less than 0.03% of the vote in 2004 presidential election.

Yes and no. I know that "true" left wing parties are so rare in the US that they can be ignored. This is of course a result of the scare of communism you had a few decades ago that made it impossible to have left wing thoughts without being labeled a communist. But when you refer to left and right wing political views you have to have a global perspective with fascism at the far right and communism at the far left. As an outsider it's hard to understand the difference between conservatives and liberals in the US, but thankfully this American administration's actions has made the picture a little clearer.

[WrongWay 0]

But when you refer to left and right wing political views you have to have a global perspective with fascism at the far right and communism at the far left.

No we don't. We are the world's only super power, and we're willing to bankrupt ourselves to stay there for a few more years. We'll worry about global perspective after we're knocked off our high horse, and not one day sooner.I don't get "fascism" on the far right and communism on the far left. Both advocate total control of the economy by the government. What is the fundamental difference that places then at extreme polar opposites.I'd put Libritarianism... a total hands-off government.. to the extreme left, with communism and fascism on the far right with total government envolvement in every aspect of the economy.

As an outsider it's hard to understand the difference between conservatives and liberals in the US, but thankfully this American administration's actions has made the picture a little clearer.

Putting it in simple terms:Traditionally, the Democrats liked to tax the rich and create social programs that made people dependant on the government. Unfortuantly, their war on poverty of the 60s and 70s was a total disaster. Hand outs to the poor just created way more poor. They've now abandoned the traditional "left" position of war on poverty and now focus on protecting us from ourselves and "tax fairness" (meaning the rich pay more).Democrat: Increase tax burden on the rich, increase regualtions on business to "keep us safe" while fighting controls on personal freedom, except gun ownership which is more of a "keep us safe" than personal freedom issue for them.The Republicans lower taxes, and move spending from social programs to the military-industiral complex. The result is massive deficits. They dislike regulations on business, changing laws to help the rich get richer while the middle class suffers.Republican: Make the Bible law of personal behavior, while removing government regulation of business. Cut taxes and just add to the national debt.So, we have the tax and spend Democrats vs. the borrow and spend Republicans. The Democrats that want to protect us from ourselves and business, and the Republicans that want to make us all Bible thumpers while letting business do us any way it wants.Both parties are in favor of war when the people are in favor of war, and neither party is in favor of war when the people are against war. The problem for the Republicans is that they are running the war when it is unpopular (and got us into it). The problem for the Democrats when they take over in 2 years is that they won't be able to get us out as easily as the people demand. Not without creating a true mess that they'll get blamed for later.The real big issues like Social Security, our unsustainably high standard of living, soring debt to income ratio, collapsing meidcal non-system, trade deficit, etc... Engh, no one wants to deal with them. There is an election every 2 years, and addressing any real difficult issue only costs you votes. So, they keep us arguing about petty crap like abortion and gay rightsvs. protecting marriage and diversity vs. war on Christmas and who does or does not have a plan to fix the Middle East (hint, no one does... it has been broken for 3000+ years, so what makes us think we can fix it?).

[Loismustdie 0]

Scarily similar.I think we have a very disturbed individual amongst us...

So you are completely unaware that God plan is to bring the world to it's knees. Gotcha. One more who has never read the bible.

[Loismustdie 0]

Wow. Just wow. If that really is an accurate depiction of the Christian God, and I am in fact wrong about the lack of deities in the world, I will go to hell just to stay away from him.Of course, it's really just Lois's sick imagination and interpretation, although, after reading the Bible, it's not hard to see how he could come up with that.

At least you understand what you read. You can go to hell if you want, the choice is yours.

[Loismustdie 0]

Scarily similar.I think we have a very disturbed individual amongst us...

I will say this- it is disturbing, I don't like it, it's very frightening. And, I could be wrong, yet it amazes me that not one of the "Christians" on this board have said one word. No thoughts, no reflections, just life a usual. That, my friend, is disturbing.

[Flack_attack 0]

I'd put Libritarianism... a total hands-off government.. to the extreme left, with communism and fascism on the far right with total government envolvement in every aspect of the economy.Putting it in simple terms:

Libertarianism is far right, communism is far left.

[DerekTah 0]

I will say this- it is disturbing, I don't like it, it's very frightening. And, I could be wrong, yet it amazes me that not one of the "Christians" on this board have said one word. No thoughts, no reflections, just life a usual. That, my friend, is disturbing.

Um, I have thought and reflections, just not yours. I thought I made it personally my view that this has to do with the way we treat (or in this case don't treat) the mentally ill. There were warning signs all over the place but there was no ability to force him to seek consoling or put him away dispite the past stalking incidents. Most cases its "we never really saw it coming", this time people are yelling left and center "we thought this guy may do this".And I also gave what it would change, sorry I don't believe in your "god wants us on our knees 40,000 at a time" theory. I wonder what changed in between then and now that god seems to be stoping the wannabe mass murder that been on the news for most of the day.

[Loismustdie 0]

Um, I have thought and reflections, just not yours. I thought I made it personally my view that this has to do with the way we treat (or in this case don't treat) the mentally ill. There were warning signs all over the place but there was no ability to force him to seek consoling or put him away dispite the past stalking incidents. Most cases its "we never really saw it coming", this time people are yelling left and center "we thought this guy may do this".And I also gave what it would change, sorry I don't believe in your "god wants us on our knees 40,000 at a time" theory. I wonder what changed in between then and now that god seems to be stoping the wannabe mass murder that been on the news for most of the day.

Haven't watched the news today, but if there was one that was stopped, good. I would suspect there was somebody in the area God wanted to protect- you know, one of his people you claim he can do nothing for. Derek, look at it this way. Do you really think this is the only disenfrachised guy with a gun? No. There are plenty, plenty more that just haven't quite hit that threshold yet, haven't quite pulled the trigger. Yet,God saw fit to let one do his thing. Satan said,"I want to push this guy this far, and this is what he is going to do", and God looked down, saw the deed, because as we know he can see all and knows all, and said,"O.K. Let it happen." What part of that do you not understand? Or are you saying what I am saying except that God allowed it because we treat the mentally ill shitty? If so, throw it in with the other reasons, I am just saying that God allowed it.

[jmkiser 0]

Umm...Libertarianism is not right or left... or center. It's actually quite sad that politics only fall on a line. That seems to be why nothing ever gets done and problems are never solved. Government is good for what....? Delaying problems?It's definitely not far left due to our views on government and it's definitely not far right because of our views on things like gay marriage and drug laws (meaning we do not share conservative values because they have no place in government).Zeatrix hit it on the nose with our country's politics. Especially nowadays. You can barely even tell a Republican and a Democrat apart, anymore. Now conservatives vs. liberals is a little different, but it's not like conservatives aren't going to vote Republican and liberals aren't going to vote Democrat. It'll happen and this brand of Republocrat will continue to rule the most powerful country on the earth.Libertarianism (to me) is more of an ideal. We stand for less government involvement in our lives. Different Libertarians take it to different extremes. There are also people who are conservative Libertarians (those who hold the limited government ideal at heart, but tend to lean towards the conservative side of issues as long as freedoms are not being infringed) and those who are liberal Libertarians (the opposite).On a world view, conservative and liberal take much more drastic measures. To act like we are the superpower so what we say determines what right vs. left is, is hogwash. Right vs. left take on a whole new meaning in Europe, Australia, and the rest of the world. Both the Dems and the Reps are considered very "right of the center" on the grand scale of things because our society is more conservative than others.

[Zeatrix 0]

I don't get "fascism" on the far right and communism on the far left. Both advocate total control of the economy by the government. What is the fundamental difference that places then at extreme polar opposites.I'd put Libritarianism... a total hands-off government.. to the extreme left, with communism and fascism on the far right with total government envolvement in every aspect of the economy.Putting it in simple terms:...

It's very refreshing to see an American that can see beyond the republican vs democrats point of view.However I acknowledge that me putting fascism in the far right wasn't well thought out. I only did it because they are labelled as the "extreme right" in Sweden and I just put them there without really thinking it through. I have to agree that communism and libertarianism are at separate ends, but I'd say anarchy is at the far right. However you putting libertarianism on the far left and communism on the far right can't be right in any way as Flack_attack pointed out.I see there are some libertarians in this forum so why not get into that debate. (we need a Politics forum )Libertarians want to privatize medical care, right? I assume they want people to get insurance instead? But how is this different from paying taxes and getting medicare funded by the government? With insurance you are also paying for others medical treatment. Clearly having a system with no medicare and no medical insurance would be impossible since anyone who got a disease that is costly couldn't afford it, except maybe billionaires.And having a system where one can go without the ability to pay for medical care isn't a society we want to live in is it? Do we want to look at the guy that just got hit by a truck and say: Sorry, we won't help you since you can't pay?

[Zeatrix 0]

So you are completely unaware that God plan is to bring the world to it's knees. Gotcha. One more who has never read the bible.

You are missing one point. The bible wasn't written by God. It was written by humans who thought they were writing gods word. As any empirical study might show when people write other peoples word they sometimes get it wrong

[jmkiser 0]

You are missing one point. The bible wasn't written by God. It was written by humans who thought they were writing gods word. As any empirical study might show when people write other peoples word they sometimes get it wrong

let alone god's lulzy words

[KramitDaToad 0]

So you are completely unaware that God plan is to bring the world to it's knees. Gotcha. One more who has never read the bible.

Oh, I've read the Bible. Front to back and back to front.It helped me to conclude that the Christian God's existance is ridiculously unlikely.However let's assume that He is real...To suggest to know the mind of God enough to dictate that VT is His 'punishment' is dispicable arrogance.And then there is the small matter:Matt:16[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.Matt:24[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days![20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.[25] Behold, I have told you before.[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.He is just a little late don't you think?

[Zeatrix 0]

haha QFT ^^

[Loismustdie 0]

You are missing one point. The bible wasn't written by God. It was written by humans who thought they were writing gods word. As any empirical study might show when people write other peoples word they sometimes get it wrong

Maybe I should have asked nicer.

[Loismustdie 0]

Oh, I've read the Bible. Front to back and back to front.It helped me to conclude that the Christian God's existance is ridiculously unlikely.However let's assume that He is real...To suggest to know the mind of God enough to dictate that VT is His 'punishment' is dispicable arrogance.And then there is the small matter:Matt:24[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.Matt:28[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days![20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.[25] Behold, I have told you before.[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.He is just a little late don't you think?

He also said that as long as there is one more soul to be saved, he would not come back, and that no one, not even Christ, will know when that time is. You would have to believe in God to even get this concept. So, why bother?

[KramitDaToad 0]

He also said that as long as there is one more soul to be saved, he would not come back, and that no one, not even Christ, will know when that time is. You would have ignore basic logic to even get this concept. So, why bother?

FYPSo he will come back before the generation of his time ends (which has long since passed BTW) but also that he doesn't know when he will come back?Well he is either contradicting himself or he is stuck in traffic