Two Questions

[11 to 1 0]

First, I am reading Ace on the River and Barry Greenstein says his win rate per session when he was playing almost all ring games was over 75% for NL and about 58% for Limit.58%? Is this about what you all do? I'm pretty newbie so I don't know what a reasonable expectation of per session is. I don't even think in those terms, but it seems pretty low to me - OTOH...I moved up in limits, not much, from micro to low and found out I really do suck. I think. I'm actually not experienced enough to know if I really suck this badly or just am on a bad run. Second question, is there any software for practicing that anyone recommends as being worth the money? If I am going to be this bad while I'm learning, I am going to go broke, or end up playing a lot of tournaments, but I don't like tournaments and they play differently anyway, so I figure it's not going to help that much with my cash game.

[Zach6668 513]

I never really look at poker in terms of sessions. PokerTracker defines a session as each time you sit at a single table, so I put in like 12 sessions every night kinda thing as I play 4-5 tables and move around as they break, etc. So it may be somewhat skewed, but I wouldn't be suprised if 58% is about right.With respect to practice software, honestly, your best bet is to just play as many hands as you can. That's pretty much how I learned. Play a ton of hands at a limit you are overrolled for, and post any hand that you have any sort of questions on, and we'll do our best to help you out. In other words, I know of no software.I'm kinda interested though, what limits do you play, how many hands have you logged, do you have pokertracker, etc... Give us a ton of info and we can probably specify a more individualized practice schedule, so to speak.- Zach

[11 to 1 0]

I never really look at poker in terms of sessions. PokerTracker defines a session as each time you sit at a single table, so I put in like 12 sessions every night kinda thing as I play 4-5 tables and move around as they break, etc. So it may be somewhat skewed, but I wouldn't be suprised if 58% is about right.With respect to practice software, honestly, your best bet is to just play as many hands as you can. That's pretty much how I learned. Play a ton of hands at a limit you are overrolled for, and post any hand that you have any sort of questions on, and we'll do our best to help you out. In other words, I know of no software.I'm kinda interested though, what limits do you play, how many hands have you logged, do you have pokertracker, etc... Give us a ton of info and we can probably specify a more individualized practice schedule, so to speak.- Zach

Thanks, Zach. Understand, I never heard of Texas Hold 'Em or played poker in my life until a couple months ago. (Bridge was the game at my house growing up - a great excuse to drink and swear - you'da thought it was poker the way my parents played it. I'll never forget my Dad, now passed, shouting at my brother-in-law Pull the f**king trump!") I play micro-low, so I feel like I'm wasting you all's time up here. I started at 1-2 cent, worked up to 25/50 and then went to .50/1.00 a week ago. I did OK at first, but man, I just feel like I am completely outclassed and it's not that big a difference. I don't want to move back, I want to figure it out. I don't even know what a poker tracker is, and all these conversations here are some kinda poker jargon I am clueless about. Thing is, when I go to the casino, I do pretty well. I am playing the lowest limit at Foxwoods, 2/4, and thinking of moving up! WTF?If someone could link me to a poker-tracker, I'll start with that and go post hands n' stuff in the micro threads.

[David_Nicoson 1]

If someone could link me to a poker-tracker, I'll start with that and go post hands n' stuff in the micro threads.

Pick one of these:

• pokertracker
• pokeroffice

[Zach6668 513]

Pick one of these:

• pokertracker
• pokeroffice

Most people here use PokerTracker, so I'd recommend that, although I've never used Office.Honestly, if I were to start from scratch again, with no knowledge at all, I'd pretty well do what I did, and post every single hand, even the smallest decisions, that I was unsure of, and read and reply in every single post in both Micro Limit, and the Limit board.Also, PLEAAAAAAAASE don't feel as if you're wasting anyone's time if you post hands from 1c/2c or anything. We all started somewhere small, and we're all here for the same reason, and that is to improve, no matter what level we're at currently.Also, I played a ton of hands when I was just learning, and I think that was a huge key as well.For poker jargon, don't hesitate to ask any of us, and in the meantime, this thread. It contains internet slang we use here as well as some classic general threads, but definitely has some of the jargon we use here in Strat, so it could be useful to ya.

[Actuary 3]

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Stakes-Hold-Wi...TF8&s=booksyw.Post lots of Hands.I was in your exact postion in June of 05.I'm pretty decent at low stakes, now.In fact, pretty much learned how to play well enough to make $$$ in a month.But I posted intensely, the games were softer, and others were posting as wellPost lots of handsDon't have attitudeGive your arguments, listen and learn and discuss.Don't cold call raises from EP raisers when you have 66.That one was free.

[11 to 1 0]

Post lots of handsDon't have attitudeGive your arguments, listen and learn and discuss.Don't cold call raises from EP raisers when you have 66.That one was free.

I don't do attitude in this kind of sitruation, just wastes everyone's time. I do have two hands from today's sit n go (I thought it would be a good compromise between cash games and multis for experience at low cost ) - haven't found them yet. But they did send me this....can you all tell anything from it? Thanks to all for the help, not being a poker player, I have no friends who are poker players, so I've been pretty much doing it on my own...anyway...does this mean anything? It was a cheapie $5 limit sit n go:You finished in 6th place (eliminated at hand #8440228055).57 hands played and saw flop: - 1 times out of 7 while in small blind (14%) - 4 times out of 7 while in big blind (57%) - 14 times out of 43 in other positions (32%) - a total of 19 times out of 57 (33%) Pots won at showdown - 5 out of 7 (71%) Pots won without showdown - 3Wait. Even I can see something--I played too much, didn't I? I've been keeping track myself in a notebook, I'll go see how many hands I play in a cash game. I am thinking it's about 1.5 per revolution.

[Actuary 3]

can you all tell anything from it?

no

Wait. Even I can see something--I played too much, didn't I?

not enough hands played to say.If this is normal, then yeah...but if the table is really passive, I love to see cheap flops in tourneys too..while the blinds are low

I'll go see how many hands I play in a cash game. I am thinking it's about 1.5 per revolution.

counting when you are the BB? In Limit 20% is a target...17-23% for full ring

[Zach6668 513]

I don't do attitude in this kind of sitruation, just wastes everyone's time. I do have two hands from today's sit n go (I thought it would be a good compromise between cash games and multis for experience at low cost ) - haven't found them yet. But they did send me this....can you all tell anything from it? Thanks to all for the help, not being a poker player, I have no friends who are poker players, so I've been pretty much doing it on my own...anyway...does this mean anything? It was a cheapie $5 limit sit n go:You finished in 6th place (eliminated at hand #8440228055).57 hands played and saw flop: - 1 times out of 7 while in small blind (14%) - 4 times out of 7 while in big blind (57%) - 14 times out of 43 in other positions (32%) - a total of 19 times out of 57 (33%) Pots won at showdown - 5 out of 7 (71%) Pots won without showdown - 3Wait. Even I can see something--I played too much, didn't I? I've been keeping track myself in a notebook, I'll go see how many hands I play in a cash game. I am thinking it's about 1.5 per revolution.

That's not nearly enough information to even tell if you did play too loose.My advice for you is to pick one thing, for now, and focus on it. Get the principles, etc down pat in one form of hold'em (ie Limit, SNGs, MTTs, etc) before you move on to the next one.

[11 to 1 0]

That's not nearly enough information to even tell if you did play too loose.My advice for you is to pick one thing, for now, and focus on it. Get the principles, etc down pat in one form of hold'em (ie Limit, SNGs, MTTs, etc) before you move on to the next one.

Yeah, I think you're right. I feel like I just moved from an automatic to a five speed stick. I'm gonna have to try a few of these things and choose, I guess.

Actuary said: In Limit 20% is a target...17-23% for full ring

Funny, I read a slew of poker books, can't remember getting a simple stat like this, thnaks. I checked my own log - I was kidding myself - the actual rate is about 26%. Gonna go download that pokertracker deal. Not sure how many of those are BBs, so many ck-ck-ck- games, yanno?

[11 to 1 0]

I know there is some converter people use, I just did this with our edit stuff, tell me what the other way is that is the convention here and I'll do that. The question is: what would you do differently and why? One of my issues is: I feel like when I do win, I don't know how to get paid off. So, I try to get money into the pot pretty much anytime I still think I might win - thing is, even though folding ended up being good, I think I should've stayed to the end. Criticism appreciated. PokerStars Game #8431661356: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/02/13 - 23:47:46 (ET)Table 'Vitja' 10-max Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: mack mclean ($3.70 in chips) Seat 2: ACE_Fish1 ($14.25 in chips) Seat 3: jerry-777 ($59.65 in chips) Seat 5: ladebonis ($24.05 in chips) Seat 6: spikeb2 ($34.35 in chips) Seat 7: PartyBee ($50.40 in chips) Seat 8: Tammy_Lea123 ($35.75 in chips) Seat 9: blntznbrndy ($22.30 in chips) Seat 10: MrdrofCrows ($19 in chips) spikeb2: posts small blind $0.25PartyBee: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to MrdrofCrows :D Tammy_Lea123: folds blntznbrndy: folds MrdrofCrows: raises $0.50 to $1mack mclean: calls $1ACE_Fish1: folds jerry-777: calls $1ladebonis: folds spikeb2: folds PartyBee: folds *** FLOP *** :icon_dance: MrdrofCrows: bets $0.50mack mclean: raises $0.50 to $1jerry-777: calls $1MrdrofCrows: calls $0.50*** TURN *** :icon_dance: MrdrofCrows: checks mack mclean: bets $1jerry-777: calls $1MrdrofCrows: folds *** RIVER *** :icon_dance: :Dmack mclean: bets $0.70 and is all-injerry-777: calls $0.70*** SHOW DOWN ***mack mclean: shows [5h Jh] (a flush, King high)jerry-777: mucks hand(edited to add: OMG - just downloaded the test version of Pokertracker - HOW COOL IS THAT! )

[Actuary 3]

just paste the Hand History in the "Input" area of this site:http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.phpAnd then press..."Convert Hand" and presto..it shows up in the output section,coverted.Paste it into here and voila.****************I would fold the flop, unless I knew that 2nd caller was loose and called with like AJ type hands here AND the raiser was capable of doing this with 88 or a drawBut, you're almost always drawing to two outs and when you are ahead, you are dodging maybe 12-15 cards, twice.Which is fine, given the pot odds to see showdown; however, as we first noted, that 2nd caller combined with the flop raiser, tells me someone has a K a lot here.The odds of two flush draws or something like 75 calling preflop are possibilites..but imo, not enough to call a small bet on the flop and two more big bets on the turn and river.I'm trying to think of a time to 3-bet here and fld to a cap but by then the pot is too big to fold for one more bet, when that other guy is calling.So, you end up c/f'ing the turn, Unimproved (UI) and cost 3 more small bets (SBs) than bet-folding the flop ( b/f ).But, a flop raise here, is also not always a K.If that raiser is capable of raising draws and worse pairs, like 88 here; and the caller is loosish; I'll bet/call the flop and bet/fold the turn. If he's drawing, he almost never pops the turn. Then I usually c/c the river, hoping to catch a bluff, and not get raised by a K or better. If both players call my turn bet, then I will not over-call the river. It gets messy taking this line. 85% of the time, I bet/fold the flop.Another thing to keep in mind. When you raise preflop, others put AK prominently in your range. When a K flops and you bet, I think they are less likely to raise here w/o the K because they know you are quite capable of having that hand. It's not like the board came 479 and he's trying to move you off over cards here.thats' some thoughts of the top of my head...TT is a very tough hand to play out of positionYou'll fold the best hand often. It happens

[Zach6668 513]

http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter^^That one works well too as a converter, if you are ever on a site that isn't PokerStars.I'm with Actuary though, I probably bet/fold that flop.

[11 to 1 0]

just paste the Hand History in the "Input" area of this site:http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.phpAnd then press..."Convert Hand" and presto..it shows up in the output section,coverted.Paste it into here and voila.****************I would fold the flop, ...

Yes, exactly what I should have done. I've had this tendency to play a pair from any position if I can limp in. Mostly because I have won these large (for me) casino pots when I've flopped trips with like, 33. But, then I read Harmon in SS and she's all about aggression, so I've been raising pre-flop with any pair down to 99. I think it's been helping, I'm collecting blinds with that and I think I might be running out a few drawing hands, but....but I always just folded on the flop if I didn't hit. Now, sometimes, the pot seems so large, I figure I ought to call another card. I think I just screwed my head up. So my question for you and Zach is, would you have limped, raised or what preflop?

Another thing to keep in mind. When you raise preflop, others put AK prominently in your range. When a K flops and you bet, I think they are less likely to raise here w/o the K because they know you are quite capable of having that hand. It's not like the board came 479 and he's trying to move you off over cards here.

I gotta tell you, I think he just bet the way he did becausehe was almost broke and decided to go for it. I don't know why people do that in ring games, but he raised the flop with his J5suited. Doesn't matter what he was doing, though, I lost this hand when I didn't fold on the flop.

[11 to 1 0]

http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter^^That one works well too as a converter, if you are ever on a site that isn't PokerStars.I'm with Actuary though, I probably bet/fold that flop.

I agree with you both and I'm glad to read it. I was thinking people who are good at this would be pushing more risk-taking. I don't mind a gamble once in a while, you have to, but I'd rather just make sensible decisions. Thanks for these links, I wonder if we should ask a moderator to make a pinned folder for reference links? (Or is there one and I missed it?) So, I have to tell you all what happened last night. I was really tired and thought maybe I'd just watch some hands being played by a good player somewhere - I was watching this 1-2 $ table and saw this guy, just betting and betting this flop with an A and a K, then another A on the river and I'm thinking "Somebody's got trip Aces, maybe a full house, I wonder why the other guy keeps calling him?" Then they have the showdown. The caller won with pocket 9s, the bettor mucked. Huh? I watch three hands when I get in line - this guy played every hand almost, all the way, ATC. The game was above my level but I thought, maybe if I just sit quietly and wait for a big hand, I can have some of his money, too. So I'm tired, but now I'm in this game. This guy went broke and then went and got more money. Crazy. I made more money than I ever had in a single session, like $38. Which for a micro player like me is a vast fortune! There were like, three really bad players here, like people I'd see at really low micro limits. So, it was great for my confidence. I'm not the best player, but I can see if I looked for the right tables, and stopped trying to win and let the cards find me, I might do okay while I'm figuring it out.

[Zach6668 513]

Thanks for these links, I wonder if we should ask a moderator to make a pinned folder for reference links? (Or is there one and I missed it?)

I'm the moderator. I pinned one at the top of every forum titled "... Forum Posting Guidelines".

So, I have to tell you all what happened last night. I was really tired and thought maybe I'd just watch some hands being played by a good player somewhere - I was watching this 1-2 $ table and saw this guy, just betting and betting this flop with an A and a K, then another A on the river and I'm thinking "Somebody's got trip Aces, maybe a full house, I wonder why the other guy keeps calling him?" Then they have the showdown. The caller won with pocket 9s, the bettor mucked. Huh? I watch three hands when I get in line - this guy played every hand almost, all the way, ATC. The game was above my level but I thought, maybe if I just sit quietly and wait for a big hand, I can have some of his money, too. So I'm tired, but now I'm in this game. This guy went broke and then went and got more money. Crazy. I made more money than I ever had in a single session, like $38. Which for a micro player like me is a vast fortune! There were like, three really bad players here, like people I'd see at really low micro limits. So, it was great for my confidence. I'm not the best player, but I can see if I looked for the right tables, and stopped trying to win and let the cards find me, I might do okay while I'm figuring it out.

Good stuff.Fwiw, your hand with TT, where villain raised with J5 sooted on the flop. It's not necessarily a terrible play. It's like a semi-bluff, as he had a flush draw. He knows he doesn't have the best hand at the time, but the chances that you fold a better hand, ie TT-QQ, combined with the chance that he improves to the best hand are enough to warrant a raise in some situations. Not saying this is necessarily the right spot, but sometimes.Also, as you alluded to, he's just trying to get it in because he's out of money. That's entirely possible, and why I tend to call down broke players a lot more often, and a bit lighter. As I know Actuary has said before on these forums, don't trust broke players. That's usually an indication that they are really bad.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

So my question for you and Zach is, would you have limped, raised or what preflop?

and I'm a nobody?******************************Raising is very standard here, preflpSo is the raise with Jh5h on the flop.His preflop call was bad thoughAs mentioned in Actuary's response above, the 3rd players call of two bets combined with the raise, signifies a beter hand is out there already combined with the chance of being outdrawn if ahead enough for you to fold the flopI had a guy lose.oh man, I can't even remeber... something like $150 in 45 minutes and I got $60 of it.Maniacs on super tilt are sweet. But I would not count on being able to find them regularly.

[Zach6668 513]

and I'm a nobody?

Read it again.It says "for YOU and Zach"You = Actuary.Also, I didn't notice the PF question the first time.Ya, definitely a standard pf raise from any position, usually a 3-bet too.

[Actuary 3]

Read it again.It says "for YOU and Zach"You = Actuary.

I missed the "you"... and the "and"lol... I don't read too well.I might be too sensitive!

[11 to 1 0]

and I'm a nobody?

I was talking to you! ******************************

Raising is very standard here, preflpSo is the raise with Jh5h on the flop.His preflop call was bad thoughAs mentioned in Actuary's response above, the 3rd players call of two bets combined with the raise, signifies a beter hand is out there already combined with the chance of being outdrawn if ahead enough for you to fold the flopI had a guy lose.oh man, I can't even remeber... something like $150 in 45 minutes and I got $60 of it.Maniacs on super tilt are sweet. But I would not count on being able to find them regularly.

Too bad. The Poker Gods must've decided I needed a pick me up. So, OK. Still raising with TT preflop. I think I'll post my "game plan" a little later, maybe you wouldn't mind looking atit and adding suggestions.

[Actuary 3]

maybe you wouldn't mind looking atit and adding suggestions.

I'm alone for 6 hours after work and before bed each weeknight.Yeah, I'll check it out.Please go to Indiana and buy my home; so my wife can come down here.thanks!

[11 to 1 0]

I'm alone for 6 hours after work and before bed each weeknight.Yeah, I'll check it out.Please go to Indiana and buy my home; so my wife can come down here.thanks!

Buyer's market. It's my prediction that prices will keep dropping for another three-five months, level out and stay there until after the lections. Get a management company and see if you can rent it out. Or, if you can take the loss right now, drop the price so low no one can pass it up. So, I developed this as my "game plan" and if I follow it with real discipline, I do OK. I have small losses and steady gains. Once in a while a big pot, but mostly lots of small ones. It ain't revolutionary, but I did it this way because I can't seem to get the hang of positional poker. I understand the concept, but there was so much to learn so fast, I decided, "I can play this way from any position." And I do. I raise with AA-99, AK and AQ. (I am developing a bizarre superstition about AK, I lost with it every time I had it last night, which was three times. I also hate JJ and usually don't raise with it, even though the list says I should, I lost FOUR times with it last night. - I had a bad night as you can tell.) I limp and will call one bet with lower pairs, JTs and Axs. I also play Kx suited if I can limp. My rule is: "if you don't hit the flop hard fold." But then, I started playing aggressively and found out, huh, you can bluff at Limit and I think I've gotten kinda sloppy. I had that pokertracker do my profile. It's nuts, something like, tight-loose-aggressive-passive. That's me all over right now! I used to play a lot of suited connectors, but I got sucked out on a lot by overcards and now mostly just play the JT. I lost a lot last night, I think, for two reasons. I just didn't use the discipline to follow my own rules and fold on the flop, I kept thinking, "This AK could improve, the board is Q-9-2 how bad could it be?" And I know better, so that's an internal thing I have to work on. But I also lost because I didn't know when to get off the table. In the end I finally did, went to another table and won a little back, but then was too tired to keep at it. I'm going to ask this in the micro folder as well, When do you leave? That is, if I am playing say, 1-2 Lmt and I have 40$, when do I cut my losses and look for a better table or just quit? I donked that baby off to like 8.50 before I got it back up over 20, then had the sense to get the hell out - but do you use some formula for this?

[11 to 1 0]

Also, I didn't notice the PF question the first time.Ya, definitely a standard pf raise from any position, usually a 3-bet too.

Wait, I may have gotten lost here. Are you saying to three-bet TT preflop from any position? And I put my PGP (personal game plan) in a post to Actuary but would you mind adding a few cents worth of wisdom? (Everyone should always assume I want to hear from everyone--I do) You're the moderator? Cool! Why doesn't it say that under your icon? On a lot of forums they have a pinned thread just for links, but I'll go look in the pinned ones here and look for them.

[Zach6668 513]

Wait, I may have gotten lost here. Are you saying to three-bet TT preflop from any position? And I put my PGP (personal game plan) in a post to Actuary but would you mind adding a few cents worth of wisdom? (Everyone should always assume I want to hear from everyone--I do) You're the moderator? Cool! Why doesn't it say that under your icon? On a lot of forums they have a pinned thread just for links, but I'll go look in the pinned ones here and look for them.

So 3-betting TT is an interesting thing, like 3-betting 99, 88, 77, etc. Not necessarily from any position, but it depends on the raiser. If you are button, and it folds to the CO who raises, your TT is almost always the best hand, so 3-betting is without a doubt the best play, for example.As for your gameplan. I'll be brutally honest. It's not good. Well, only in the sense that poker is too situational to use a gameplan like that. Honestly, what you need to do is understand WHY you are raising with hands like JJ, AK, etc, not simply that you should raise with them because a book said to do it. There's so much to learn in poker that I can't even continue to explain it rigth now, lol. I'm overwhelmed a bit here. It's pretty clear you are new to poker theory, so there's a ton for you to learn, and it's awesome that you have an open mind, and definitely a willingness/desire to learn, but I have no idea even where to start.Hopefully Actuary can detail a bit more here.- Zach

[11 to 1 0]

So 3-betting TT is an interesting thing, like 3-betting 99, 88, 77, etc. Not necessarily from any position, but it depends on the raiser. If you are button, and it folds to the CO who raises, your TT is almost always the best hand, so 3-betting is without a doubt the best play, for example.As for your gameplan. I'll be brutally honest. It's not good. Well, only in the sense that poker is too situational to use a gameplan like that. Honestly, what you need to do is understand WHY you are raising with hands like JJ, AK, etc, not simply that you should raise with them because a book said to do it. There's so much to learn in poker that I can't even continue to explain it rigth now, lol. I'm overwhelmed a bit here. It's pretty clear you are new to poker theory, so there's a ton for you to learn, and it's awesome that you have an open mind, and definitely a willingness/desire to learn, but I have no idea even where to start.Hopefully Actuary can detail a bit more here.- Zach

Thanks, I appreciate any bits you have time for. Maybe it'll be easier if I tell you what I know. I raise big pairs to try and get the limpers out who are gonna suck me out on the river with a gutshot straight draw or smaller pairs who are looking to make trips. I did read that in books, but I also got sucked out on enough in these situations when I started that I always raise now, except, I sometimes don't raise with AA at micro limits in late position because they just won't fold. I can raise it from early position in micro, because they will then not come in at all. (This is like .10/25 ) I also understand that being last to act has advantages. On the tables I used to play, it was standard check-check-check, let's all see if anyone hits anything poker. So, anyone who bets at the pot could take it. That's how I learned to bluff a little. If they didn't fold, I'd check-raise the turn and that usually did it. If it didn't, then I knew they had an actual hand. That doesn't work at these higher limits, thoguh, which is why I developed the new PGP. I used to play lots of suited connectors and stuff, have more fun, make enough money to build a bankroll. But what I don't get is this: If you are button, and it folds to the CO who raises, your TT is almost always the best hand, so 3-betting is without a doubt the best play, for example.Why? I mean, I understand he might just be trying to steal the blinds, but are you talking statistically? Like, at this point it's like playing a four-handed game? I also know enough to know when that super-tight "pro" who has been playing three tables and is steadily working his way into the hundreds at all of them raises prefllop, I don't want to three bet his Aces. (And I understand you have a life, so, if you get around to an answer in a few days, it's OK. I'm not going anywhere. ) And I always want honesty, if it sucks, it does. It's why I asked.