Folding Kk Omg?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Exactly, KK cant be good enough here to warrant a shove. Folding leaves me 1200ish left in chips which is plenty to work at this point instead of getting myself into a marginal at best situation.Belows range is extremely small which should make serb's range even smaller. I think this is one of the few times that folding KK preflop is the correct play. Ask Below, he did just that.

I was gonna make a serious post about how I thought that the hand ranges we were putting them on were much too narrow..I think that if I'm Below, I make that cold call with a variety of hands in an attempt to represent monster strength post-flop, and to see a reasonably cheap flop with said hands.Then again, I'm a bad tournament player, too.

[looshle 6]

so why did you shove?

Because you're limited to the amount of time you have to think about the situation. My impatience got the best of me and I stupidly threw my chips in figuring I'd rather be wrong by shoving than wrong by folding, but after having some time to look at the situation I don't think I can make a strong enough case for shoving here.

[TB17 0]

Both are very worrisome. Below's because hopefully we can narrow his range making that play by a lot. Serb's because you would think he is going through the same thinking as us and putting Below on a big hand. Below's flat is what makes this hand complicated. We can narrow Below's range and if Serb really is good then it almost has to narrow his range down to 2 hands (after he puts in the 3 bet).

DrawinDead kinda made I dunno if it was a serious post but it kinda made think about whether it really was just a misclick? Because I accidentally cold-called 2 bets with 4th pair by just clicking "call any" button. It's not likely, but he must play 5-6 tourneys at a time so it's possible, that maybe that's what Below did? If it was an instacall then I think it's something to think about.EDIT: that's a weird line for Below's KK.

[PMJackson21 0]

Exactly, KK cant be good enough here to warrant a shove. Folding leaves me 1200ish left in chips which is plenty to work at this point instead of getting myself into a marginal at best situation.Belows range is extremely small which should make serb's range even smaller. I think this is one of the few times that folding KK preflop is the correct play. Ask Below, he did just that.

Below had the other two kings? Obv less likely since you had KK, but I guess I can see him playing it like that. Then serb re-re-r, and you jam, Below folds his KK and feels like a genius when he sees serb's AA vs your KK. :-)

I was gonna make a serious post about how I thought that the hand ranges we were putting them on were much too narrow..I think that if I'm Below, I make that cold call with a variety of hands in an attempt to represent monster strength post-flop, and to see a reasonably cheap flop with said hands.Then again, I'm a bad tournament player, too.

That would be just spewing chips at the 10/20 level, with the original raiser still to act after him.

[RDog 0]

I was gonna make a serious post about how I thought that the hand ranges we were putting them on were much too narrow..I think that if I'm Below, I make that cold call with a variety of hands in an attempt to represent monster strength post-flop, and to see a reasonably cheap flop with said hands.Then again, I'm a bad tournament player, too.

1/5 of your stack isn't cheap.

[stevedar 0]

my case for shoving basically was that below didn't have to have a strong hand there...this of course isn't based on any knowledge of any particular players...serb, unless you knew he was a good player, after all there are alot of bad players at every level, could have had ak, qq+. I personally still think shoving and hoping that he's holding one of the 2 hands you beat as opposed to the one that beats you is the right play.

[RDog 0]

Because you're limited to the amount of time you have to think about the situation. My impatience got the best of me and I stupidly threw my chips in figuring I'd rather be wrong by shoving than wrong by folding, but after having some time to look at the situation I don't think I can make a strong enough case for shoving here.

Yeah, I totally see this. Once we have talked and talked and talked about this, it makes a fold much easier to see. Most of us probably make the same move given limited time.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

That would be just spewing chips at the 10/20 level, with the original raiser still to act after him.

Let me re-highlight where I said I was an awful tournament player.Very interesting read, fellas, truly.

[TB17 0]

I don't think any player can make that 3rd raise with AK or QQ steve...if anyone is likely to have those hands it'd be Below. Tough luck on the hand Looshle.

[stevedar 0]

I don't think any player can make that 3rd raise with AK or QQ steve...if anyone is likely to have those hands it'd be Below. Tough luck on the hand Looshle.

the fact that there are 20 5+ rebuy tournaments a day to qualify for the double shootout makes it entirely possible

[PMJackson21 0]

my case for shoving basically was that below didn't have to have a strong hand there...this of course isn't based on any knowledge of any particular players...serb, unless you knew he was a good player, after all there are alot of bad players at every level, could have had ak, qq+. I personally still think shoving and hoping that he's holding one of the 2 hands you beat as opposed to the one that beats you is the right play.

This fallacy is what makes the subsequent analysis incorrect. His range is very narrow there. If he re-r-r, I'm more likely to put him on QQ or AK then I am with the flat call.Serb's actions would be even more alarming if he was a bad player. Bad players don't play QQ or AK like that (and for that matter, neither do good players at that stage in that tournament).

[RDog 0]

my case for shoving basically was that below didn't have to have a strong hand there...this of course isn't based on any knowledge of any particular players...serb, unless you knew he was a good player, after all there are alot of bad players at every level, could have had ak, qq+. I personally still think shoving and hoping that he's holding one of the 2 hands you beat as opposed to the one that beats you is the right play.

I think this is one of the common misconceptions. A flat call of a big reraise at that level is one of the most worrisome things you will ever run in to. Too often people see that as mid pocket pairs or weakness. Most of the time it is not. Given that Below was willing to play this hand in between Loosh and Serb is another indication of big strength. Playing say JJ to a flop in between 2 strong players is asking for trouble. Everything pointed to a big hand for Below, which made Serbs move even stronger.

[PMJackson21 0]

Because you're limited to the amount of time you have to think about the situation. My impatience got the best of me and I stupidly threw my chips in figuring I'd rather be wrong by shoving than wrong by folding, but after having some time to look at the situation I don't think I can make a strong enough case for shoving here.

I agree...Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. :-)

[no not baxter 0]

I folded QQ today deep in a donkament and I felt special. Bel0w is THE man. Hes currently wrecking the $10 rebuy.

[RDog 0]

I folded QQ today deep in a donkament and I felt special. Bel0w is THE man. Hes currently wrecking the $10 rebuy.

Loosh's decision was tough. I think Below's spot was actually fairly easy to fold KK once it got back to him (4 bet by Serb, All in by Loosh). Now I need to go find all my posts that said I would never fold KK pre.

[PMJackson21 0]

I folded QQ today deep in a donkament and I felt special. Bel0w is THE man. Hes currently wrecking the $10 rebuy.

Bax, Below, Tsop table is a railbird's wet dream. :-)

[no not baxter 0]

Bax, Below, Tsop table is a railbird's wet dream. :-)

Yep, was about to go to homework. Now I will rail this tournament until its finish.

[stevedar 0]

I think this is one of the common misconceptions. A flat call of a big reraise at that level is one of the most worrisome things you will ever run in to. Too often people see that as mid pocket pairs or weakness. Most of the time it is not. Given that Below was willing to play this hand in between Loosh and Serb is another indication of big strength. Playing say JJ to a flop in between 2 strong players is asking for trouble. Everything pointed to a big hand for Below, which made Serbs move even stronger.

I wasn't ever saying that it isn't possible that he had a big hand...I personally play quite tight at everything besides low level NL cash games...my point was that he was making a play on looshle, someone he knows is a good tournament player...someone who would recognize that the flat call is a sign of strength not weakness...I am personally not capable of this play whatsoever...I was merely posing the question of is it possible for a player who is trying to gain control of a table to make that play...assuming you know before the hand that serb is an excellent player I say fold away. However all we had was an after the fact comment that he was in fact a quality player. Assuming serb is just another losing player it's perfectly reasonable that he would shove with substandard holdings. My primary reason for shoving is as follows is that shoving is that you will likely play the hand heads up against serb with a reasonable chance of winning the hand ASSUMING he isn't a good enough player to lay down AK or QQ. Winning that hand increases your chance of winning that round dramatically.

Loosh's decision was tough. I think Below's spot was actually fairly easy to fold KK once it got back to him (3 bet by Serb, All in by Loosh). Now I need to go find all my posts that said I would never fold KK pre.

even I fold KK in belows spot

[PMJackson21 0]

I wasn't ever saying that it isn't possible that he had a big hand...I personally play quite tight at everything besides low level NL cash games...my point was that he was making a play on looshle, someone he knows is a good tournament player...someone who would recognize that the flat call is a sign of strength not weakness...I am personally not capable of this play whatsoever...I was merely posing the question of is it possible for a player who is trying to gain control of a table to make that play...assuming you know before the hand that serb is an excellent player I say fold away. However all we had was an after the fact comment that he was in fact a quality player. Assuming serb is just another losing player it's perfectly reasonable that he would shove with substandard holdings. My primary reason for shoving is as follows is that shoving is that you will likely play the hand heads up against serb with a reasonable chance of winning the hand ASSUMING he isn't a good enough player to lay down AK or QQ. Winning that hand increases your chance of winning that round dramatically. even I fold KK in belows spot

No, Below is not going to make a 'play' like that. Wrong tournament/situation to even try something like that. All the reasons why this would be a horrible play have been talked about in the thread.If serb is playing QQ or AK after looshle's re-r and Below's flat call, he is most likely going all-in, not making a cutesy re-re-r.

[RDog 0]

I wasn't ever saying that it isn't possible that he had a big hand...I personally play quite tight at everything besides low level NL cash games...my point was that he was making a play on looshle, someone he knows is a good tournament player...someone who would recognize that the flat call is a sign of strength not weakness...I am personally not capable of this play whatsoever...I was merely posing the question of is it possible for a player who is trying to gain control of a table to make that play...assuming you know before the hand that serb is an excellent player I say fold away. However all we had was an after the fact comment that he was in fact a quality player. Assuming serb is just another losing player it's perfectly reasonable that he would shove with substandard holdings. My primary reason for shoving is as follows is that shoving is that you will likely play the hand heads up against serb with a reasonable chance of winning the hand ASSUMING he isn't a good enough player to lay down AK or QQ. Winning that hand increases your chance of winning that round dramatically. even I fold KK in belows spot

Overthinking. Sometimes things are what they are. Below isn't calling off 1/5 his stack, playing the hand sandwiched, without a big hand. Just isn't happening. If he was deepstacked in an MTT is his range wider? Absolutely. Here, nope. Sometimes hands become almost transparent. This ended up being one of them. Trying to see different angles when they aren't there. Does Below have something we haven't put in his range like 5% of the time? Maybe. We all play hands sometimes for a variety of reasons, we are tired, distracted, lots of things. 95% of the time this is a BIG hand for Below given the circumstances.

[stevedar 0]

No, Below is not going to make a 'play' like that. Wrong tournament/situation to even try something like that. All the reasons why this would be a horrible play have been talked about in the thread.If serb is playing QQ or AK after looshle's re-r and Below's flat call, he is most likely going all-in, not making a cutesy re-re-r.

Please don't take my argueing as disrespect as you are a superior player but I don't see how none of this is possible.As far as Belows flat call, why bother flat calling when in your mind any decent player, looshle obviously included, would know you have to without a doubt have a monster. Is he really that afraid that one of the 2 has the one hand that can beat him? Why not push or reraise? Serb obviously isn't going to stay in the hand either way with anything less than premium holdings. What hands does he put the other 2 on that gives him a chance of extracting more chips? Is he basically hoping that looshle has precicely jj or qq and pays him off on a low flop? And as for serbs cutesy raise...assuming he's a low level player that satellited in this is in fact a play that can be regularly witnessed...there is no real chance he's going to fold preflop since he already stuck in half his chips and it's definitely not enough for a steal. Why would this be a valid play with aces but nothing else? If anything for a bad player who will act first this makes his hand seem a little weaker since the only real reason for holding back chips that I can see is to throw them in on the flop.

[PMJackson21 0]

Please don't take my argueing as disrespect as you are a superior player but I don't see how none of this is possible.As far as Belows flat call, why bother flat calling when in your mind any decent player, looshle obviously included, would know you have to without a doubt have a monster. Is he really that afraid that one of the 2 has the one hand that can beat him? Why not push or reraise? Serb obviously isn't going to stay in the hand either way with anything less than premium holdings. What hands does he put the other 2 on that gives him a chance of extracting more chips? Is he basically hoping that looshle has precicely jj or qq and pays him off on a low flop? And as for serbs cutesy raise...assuming he's a low level player that satellited in this is in fact a play that can be regularly witnessed...there is no real chance he's going to fold preflop since he already stuck in half his chips and it's definitely not enough for a steal. Why would this be a valid play with aces but nothing else? If anything for a bad player who will act first this makes his hand seem a little weaker since the only real reason for holding back chips that I can see is to throw them in on the flop.

A 3rd raise would scare away all the hands he wanted action from, and there is a good chance he would only get played back at if someone had AA or the other two kings. By flat calling he gets information from both Serb's actions, and if Serb calls/folds, the flop and looshle's action. Below knows who looshle is, and I'm fairly certain he knew who serb was. Based on that, the above statement regarding chasing away the hands he had beat is even more true.Serb is not a low limit player, so that is all irrelevant. I have a hard time believing people would play QQ or AK like that at any level, but I'll take your word for it. Still, moot point when you take into account serb's playing level.

[RDog 0]

Please don't take my argueing as disrespect as you are a superior player but I don't see how none of this is possible.As far as Belows flat call, why bother flat calling when in your mind any decent player, looshle obviously included, would know you have to without a doubt have a monster. Is he really that afraid that one of the 2 has the one hand that can beat him? Why not push or reraise? Serb obviously isn't going to stay in the hand either way with anything less than premium holdings. What hands does he put the other 2 on that gives him a chance of extracting more chips? Is he basically hoping that looshle has precicely jj or qq and pays him off on a low flop? And as for serbs cutesy raise...assuming he's a low level player that satellited in this is in fact a play that can be regularly witnessed...there is no real chance he's going to fold preflop since he already stuck in half his chips and it's definitely not enough for a steal. Why would this be a valid play with aces but nothing else? If anything for a bad player who will act first this makes his hand seem a little weaker since the only real reason for holding back chips that I can see is to throw them in on the flop.

You don't call off 1/5 your stack to represent a monster pre flop. You actually do it with a monster. There is a reason we were able to cut down Below's range because someone as good as him is only making this move with a few hands a large majority of the time.Honestly, until Serb 4 bet, Below did not have tons of information. Serbs raise could be just about anything, Loosh could be reraising a wide range knowing that Serbs hands are just about anything. Early in the tourney we can probably narrow Loosh's hands some. But Loosh is very loose. The first sign of big strength was Below flat calling. Serb has much, much, much more information than Below did. Sometimes, you telegraph that you have a big hand and there is no way around it. There are plenty of times that I know 100% that someones read will be AK but I know even knowing that, they aren't calling. I don't really care that they know my hand. Sometimes you don't care if they can narrow your range.

[PMJackson21 0]

You don't call off 1/5 your stack to represent a monster pre flop. You actually do it with a monster. There is a reason we were able to cut down Below's range because someone as good as him is only making this move with a few hands a large majority of the time.Honestly, until Serb 3 bet, Below did not have tons of information. Serbs raise could be just about anything, Loosh could be reraising a wide range knowing that Serbs hands are just about anything. Early in the tourney we can probably narrow Loosh's hands some. But Loosh is very loose. The first sign of big strength was Below flat calling. Serb has much, much, much more information than Below did. Sometimes, you telegraph that you have a big hand and there is no way around it. There are plenty of times that I know 100% that someones read will be AK but I know even knowing that, they aren't calling. I don't really care that they know my hand. Sometimes you don't care if they can narrow your range.

Agreed.I actually like a flat call from Serb considering it's the first table of a DS. I think the re-re-raise telegraphs his hand too much, and the risk of seeing a flop 3 handed is out weighed by the reward of potentially tripling up.Heh, serb's db on Stars = 11 tournaments, 189k, avg buy in 800+, an roi of 1913%, a 2nd in a $500 Sunday million, and a ft (9th) in the WCOOP ME.

[looshle 6]

I like how I was 100% positive I'd have at least Pat on my side.Nit :-P